1 Jn 5:2. Jesus=God

Nathan P said:
Right when it says "the Spirit of his Son" it is referring to Jesus and the Spirit is something of his?
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No, the Spirit who calls out Father Father IS Jesus. Jesus (the Spirit) is something THE FATHER has, it's His SON.
 
Photine said:
No.. lol.

Jesus (THE SPIRIT) said "I will acknowledge that name before my Father" to the Churches.



"The Spirit of His Son" who cries "Father Father" is Jesus, the One and Only Son.

The same Spirit who says "I will acknowledge that name before my Father" in Revelation 3:5.
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Jesus THE SON, said I will acknowledge.......................before MY Father.
 
Photine said:
Answer with a YES or NO please.

Is Jesus ALONE God?
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I'll answer with the Bible..
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

John says Jesus was God and also with God....The answer to your question is...no.
 
Trinitarian said:
We must not reduce God into a mathematical equation. God is much to complex a Being to be analyzed by man in such ways.
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I believe that reducing God to a mathematical equation is wrong, but using mathematics [which God created], to explain God is acceptable.
Allow me to share.

Typical argument against a triune God.
The only thing we can prove is mathematics.
  • 1+1+1≠1
  • Mathematical impossibility anywhere in the universe.
  • Anything that is a mathematical impossibility does not exist.
  • A triune God does not exist.
  • Conclusion = The Christian God does not exist.
Based on the evidence presented by Trinitarians we should be able to reasonably conclude that the existence of a triune God is possible.

Any statement made in the defense of a Triune God has to pass two criteria.

  • Consistency = has to be consistent with reality.
  • Coherence = when all the statements are pooled together there has to be coherence among them. They cannot contradict, but agree and support each other. When stacked the statements should intertwine forming a tapestry that is impossible to break.
  • Three tests.
  • Logical consistency = has to be logical – non contradictory
  • Empirical adequacy = has to be verifiable, repeatable, observable
  • Experientially relevant = I have to be able to personally experience it.
The standard
External to Christianity.
1. Since the trinity is a mathematical impossibility anyone arguing for its possibility has to do so using mathematics.
2. Cannot use the Bible to argue for its existence.

Answer. 1+1+1≠1 is arithmetic not mathematics.
Mathematics 1a+1a+1a=1b

Geometry and Cosmology.

In a one-dimensional plane, there exist only straight lines. You can draw them up down, right left, back forth. Each line is a singularity.

Now move up in complexity to a two dimensional plane. In a two-dimensional plane, the lines formed in a one dimensional world can be combined in ways that could not be conceived in a one-dimensional world, to form squares for example. Now we have height and width. In a one dimensional plane four lines equal four singularities, but in two dimensional plane four lines equal one singularity = one square.

In a three dimensional plane we have height, width and depth. Now we can combine things from a one and two dimensional plane in ways they couldn’t conceive for example cubes. In a one dimensional plane we have 12 lines equal 12 singularities , but in a three dimensional plane 12 lines equal one singularity = one cube. In a two dimensional plane we have six squares equal six singularities, but in a three dimensional world six squares equal one singularity = one cube.

Notice what happened. As you move up into more complex planes you do not lose the things from the lower planes but combine them in new ways that they are not conceivable in the lower planes.

The human plane is a simple plane, where one center of consciousness = one being, or two centers of consciousness = two beings. On the Divine level there exist centers of consciousness but they are combined in new ways that we could not conceive in the human plane, such as three centers of consciousness existing in one being.

Same as a cube is six squares or twelve lines but remains a cube.

{Note paraphrasing CS Lewis}
 
Towerwatchman said:
I believe that reducing God to a mathematical equation is wrong, but using mathematics [which God created], to explain God is acceptable.
Allow me to share.

Typical argument against a triune God.
The only thing we can prove is mathematics.
  • 1+1+1≠1
  • Mathematical impossibility anywhere in the universe.
  • Anything that is a mathematical impossibility does not exist.
  • A triune God does not exist.
  • Conclusion = The Christian God does not exist.
Based on the evidence presented by Trinitarians we should be able to reasonably conclude that the existence of a triune God is possible.

Any statement made in the defense of a Triune God has to pass two criteria.

  • Consistency = has to be consistent with reality.
  • Coherence = when all the statements are pooled together there has to be coherence among them. They cannot contradict, but agree and support each other. When stacked the statements should intertwine forming a tapestry that is impossible to break.
  • Three tests.
  • Logical consistency = has to be logical – non contradictory
  • Empirical adequacy = has to be verifiable, repeatable, observable
  • Experientially relevant = I have to be able to personally experience it.
The standard
External to Christianity.
1. Since the trinity is a mathematical impossibility anyone arguing for its possibility has to do so using mathematics.
2. Cannot use the Bible to argue for its existence.

Answer. 1+1+1≠1 is arithmetic not mathematics.
Mathematics 1a+1a+1a=1b

Geometry and Cosmology.

In a one-dimensional plane, there exist only straight lines. You can draw them up down, right left, back forth. Each line is a singularity.

Now move up in complexity to a two dimensional plane. In a two-dimensional plane, the lines formed in a one dimensional world can be combined in ways that could not be conceived in a one-dimensional world, to form squares for example. Now we have height and width. In a one dimensional plane four lines equal four singularities, but in two dimensional plane four lines equal one singularity = one square.

In a three dimensional plane we have height, width and depth. Now we can combine things from a one and two dimensional plane in ways they couldn’t conceive for example cubes. In a one dimensional plane we have 12 lines equal 12 singularities , but in a three dimensional plane 12 lines equal one singularity = one cube. In a two dimensional plane we have six squares equal six singularities, but in a three dimensional world six squares equal one singularity = one cube.

Notice what happened. As you move up into more complex planes you do not lose the things from the lower planes but combine them in new ways that they are not conceivable in the lower planes.

The human plane is a simple plane, where one center of consciousness = one being, or two centers of consciousness = two beings. On the Divine level there exist centers of consciousness but they are combined in new ways that we could not conceive in the human plane, such as three centers of consciousness existing in one being.

Same as a cube is six squares or twelve lines but remains a cube.

{Note paraphrasing CS Lewis}
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I can affirm it from your perspective @Towerwatchman
 
Yahweh will increase said:
This is so simple that it is unbelievable to me that anyone could miss it like trins do, but John is very clearly speaking of two persons in 1 John 5:20 and they are Him who is true and His Son.

Here read it again and if you aren't as blind as a bat, you should be able to see this.

1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Even the words "Son of God' reveal that John is speaking of two referents here and then we also have, "and we are in him (one person the Father God) who is true, even in his Son (the other person)" and that equals two persons that John is referring to here and not just one.

Now, here is even more, for John in the very beginning of the context of this letter in 1 John 1 gives Jesus the title of "the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning (from the beginning of Jesus being revealed to men).

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

The beginning here is referring to when Jesus was made manifest in the earth and unto the twelve disciples.

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.

Jesus is called "the eternal life" because it was only through his perfect human life and blood sacrifice that God's promise of eternal life could be given unto men" and thus as Paul also reveals in 1 Corinthians 15:45-47, Jesus at his resurrection became that life giving spirit through which all who believe receive eternal life.

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

And here in the above once again, we see the same two referents that John speaks of in 1 John 5:20 and they are "Him who is true (the Father Yahweh) and His Son Jesus Christ" and "this is the true God (the Father Yahweh) and the eternal life (His Son Jesus Christ)".


Once again, remember that in the beginning of the context of 1 John 1:1-3 above, right from the start of the letter, John identifies Jesus as "The Eternal Life that was with the Father" and therefore John is referring to two persons when he says "this is the True God (The Father Yahweh) and Eternal Life" and not just one.
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The best explanation will be less contrived than other explanations.
That is, it won't require adopting as many new beliefs that have no independent evidence.

What fits this requirement.
The above bunny trail or
Who is the true God? English 101 "This is" refers to the last name mentioned, =Jesus Christ.
PS. I never wrote that there was not two individuals being mentioned.
 
Photine said:
Hahahaha.

Except The Son IS The Holy Spirit (2 Cor 3:17).

Except ONLY The Son knows The Father (Matt 11:27).

Except there is only ONE Mediator/GO-BETWEEN between God and man (1 Tim 2:5).

Except we ONLY have fellowship with The Father and His Son (1 Jn 1:3).

So that's THE ONE AND ONLY SON, ALONE, saying "I will acknowledge that name before MY FATHER", NOT The One and Only Son and "the third person of the trinity" speaking.

You believe in TWO Mediators, TWO Sons, etc.

LOLOLOL..
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You should spend more time constructing a coherent post.
 
Photine said:
OHHHHH... The Spirit of His Son refers to JESUS??.. Wow, He must be the Holy Spirit!
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MT 3:16-17 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and [b]He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Again, isolating verses and spinning them is dishonest and easily exposed. The Bible does not support modalism.
 
Nathan P said:
You say somewhere "the Spirit of his Son" refers to his Son. It is talking about the Son because the Spirit is something of his correct?
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Gal 4:6 "Spirit of his son" refers to Jesus, and is unique to Paul. Note similar expressions occur in other letters.
Rom 8:15*“spirit of sonship”) Rom 8:9*: (“spirit of Christ”); 2 Cor 3:17*: (“spirit of the Lord”); Phil 1:19*: (“spirit of Jesus Christ”).
 
Towerwatchman said:
MT 3:16-17 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and [b]He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Again, isolating verses and spinning them is dishonest and easily exposed. The Bible does not support modalism.
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You're the one who called the Spirit Jesus!
 
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