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guest1
Guest
Ditto
1John 5:1 regeneration before faith
- Thread starter Theo1689
- Start date
Alexander the adequate
Well-known member
Yes. I think everyone agrees. Regneration imparts life, it is what happens when Christ indwells us.
Theo1689
Well-known member
I to am curious as to why Arminians have to redefine words, and how to break through that and reach an Arminian mind to convince him of the truth.
You see, you claim yours is "a more straightforward understanding of the Bible".
We disagree.
We believe Calvinism is "a more straightforward understanding of the Bible".
And that yours is an incredible wreckage and denial of Scripture.
And if you read through my response to predestine's response earlier today, I wonder why you think we should reject the "straightforward" understanding of Scripture (ie. Calvinism), and instead embrace your MISINTERPRETATION of Scripture, when your side offers nothing but:
1) constant misrepresentations and straw-men of what we actually believe;
2) constant insults, uncharitable comments, and personal attacks;
3) unexegeted "proof-texts" which don't "prove" your side, since there are reasonable and valid alternate interpretations.
There are certainly a number of ideas that we can DISCUSS in a reasonable and charitable manner, but your side doesn't seem to want to. I'm guessing that they know that reasonable discussing and delving into specifics wouldn't go well for your side.
But the prima facia reason why I don't think your side will convince us to agree with you, is because of all your straw-men, you are basically admitting that you are UNABLE to successfuly refute what we ACTUALLY believe, because if you could, you would, without having to invent straw-men to beat down.
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guest1
Guest
More rhetorical posts with no scripture.
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guest1
Guest
It’s the new birth , born again , it’s new life . It’s not separate from the indwelling , it’s one in the same . Calvinists makes the fallacy of a distinction without a difference.
Strong's Concordance
paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal
Original Word: παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: regeneration, renewal
Usage: a new birth, regeneration, renewal.
HELPS Word-studies
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.
3824 /paliggenesía ("renewal, rebirth") is used twice in the NT referring to: a) the re-birth of physical creation at Christ's return (Advent), which inaugurates His millennial kingdom (Mt 19:28; cf. Ro 8:18-25); and b) the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5).
Yours Truly, Team Truth !
hope this helps !!!
Yes you cannot dismiss the evidence for faith before regeneration by arguing about grace before faith
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guest1
Guest
That is really funny
Calvinists have another understanding of free will
a revealed and a secret will of God which are contradictory
two kinds of spiritual life
two kinds of calling to salvation - an outward one and an inner one the bible never speaks of
etc
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guest1
Guest
I almost spit my water out of my mouth 😂
Theo1689
Well-known member
I just wanted to point out that the above is nothing but worthless rhetoric, it's nothing but a cop-out.
I mean, I'm sure the poster sincerely believes it, but it is nothing but an excuse to believe that there's a reason we reject their theology, other than the fact that their theology and interpretations are wrong. You see, they can't admit that their interpretations are wrong, so they have to come up with another excuse to claim why we reject their theology, and their interpretations still be right.
But what does "theology tops scripture" even mean?!
WHY would any Calvinist prefer their "theology" over Scripture? As I have pointed out many times, the ONLY reason I hold the theology that I do is BECAUSE Scripture (and the Holy Spirit) convinced me that it was true. I was a "hostile witness" at the time. I HATED Calvinism. But the more I studied Scripture, the harder it was to deny that it plainly taught Calvinism.
Look, if Scripture TRULY taught, "men have free will", I'd instantly accept it. Why wouldn't I? But I'm sincerely convinced through Scripture study that it is not taught, and what IS taught (enslavement in sin, deadness in sin, inability, etc.) is completely AGAINST "free will".
If Scripture TRULY taught, "the atonement was universal", I'd instantly accept it. But I sincerely believe it doesn't teach it, and that it teaches that the atonement was SPECIFICALLY intended for those whom God was willing to save (ie. the elect).
You saw (without basis), "for them theology tops Scripture". Why would it?! By the posts of most here, the concensus of most non-Calvinists is that it is an "evil" and "horrific" theology. So why would we prefer something "evil" or "horrific" over God's word? Your comment is irrational.
Some might say we "prefer" the theology because it means we are "elect", and therefore better than non-Calvinsts. But none only is this not true (we don't believe the elect are "better"), but if our theology of election is wrong, then there would be NO REASON for us to prefer this theology due to perceived "superiority". Quite the contrary, in fact... To prefer "theology" (if it's wrong) over "Scripture" is the height of STUPIDITY.
(And the idea of "preferring" one theology over another is misplaced. The reason I hold to Calvinism is not because I "prefer" it (as if were simply some personal preference), it's because I sincerely believe it is THE truth. In fact, I can't think of one doctrine I hold simply because of "personal preference". The reason I hold ANY doctrine is because I'm convinced it's what the Bible teaches.)
And if I were a salesman, and simply had to choose whether to promote Arminianism or Calvinism, I would probably agree that Arminianism is easier for fallen man to accept. But just because it's easier to accept, doesn't mean that it's true. So why would we prefer "theology over Scripture", if it means more people are going to reject our beliefs, and be merciless in their personal attacks and bullying on us? Again, the worthless rhetoric makes ZERO sense whatsoever.
Ironically, just yesterday I saw a post on FB that went to the effect of:
"If you start preaching election, you will soon be able to see who the elect are and who the non-elect are". Not to say that no one who rejects UE will be saved (I believe they can/will be), but that it is a doctrine of God which is looked on as "foolishness" to the world.
HealTheLand
Active member
try looking at it this way - God has a very Vast understanding - way above ours - even ChristIans
people on the other hand have limited knowledge - but not all the same. God sees from ALL
points of view. people, on the other hand, (unless they know better and start to rise above this error)
are seeing from this corner of logic ----> here ,,,,,,,,,,,, or -- this corner over ------> there, or yet another.
being in the -- corners -- too much -- we can get stuck away from more God - like thinking, i.e. -- wholeness
-- but not our version of wholeness -- if we don't / haven't learned about the Corners yet -- but are still
in a corner... but more like Un-Relegating our thinking -- by learning about all the Corners -- and the Why's of
this is not to say that some corners aren't closer to -- the Center -- or more elevated towards God and truth
possibly -- and of usefulness -- living by one Corner' s ideas over another. but also, we are all different...
so cannot really know what works (what ideas, corner (s) of God's centered All knowledge someone might
be in) for them -- or the reasons for them being there -- good or bad (stuck due to not becoming as a Child
for instance , or instead maybe stuck because they were taught however they were taught --as most were
and are a sincere person ... but haven't yet realized, cone to the realization more completely -- that they
really dont know /know -- but /believe/ it because it makes sense to them) but there is much more to learn
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HealTheLand
Active member
try looking at it this way - God has a very Vast understanding - way above ours - even ChristIans
people on the other hand have limited knowledge - but not all the same. God sees from ALL
points of view. people, on the other hand, (unless they know better and start to rise above this error)
are seeing from this corner of logic ----> here ,,,,,,,,,,,, or -- this corner over ------> there, or yet another.
being in the -- corners -- too much -- we can get stuck away from more God - like thinking, i.e. -- wholeness
-- but not our version of wholeness -- if we don't / haven't learned about the Corners yet -- but are still
in a corner... but more like Un-Relegating our thinking -- by learning about all the Corners -- and the Why's of
this is not to say that some corners aren't closer to -- the Center -- or more elevated towards God and truth
possibly -- and of usefulness -- living by one Corner' s ideas over another. but also, we are all different...
so cannot really know what works (what ideas, corner (s) of God's centered All knowledge someone might
be in) for them -- or the reasons for them being there -- good or bad (stuck due to not becoming as a Child
-- for instance , or instead maybe stuck because they were taught not as great things and dont know it yet)
and I'm not sure about the last line or two of that -- if someone knows how to correct it feel free.
it is probably my thinking stuck in a corner somehow maybe ...
.... ok, kinda fixed it changed it...
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Alexander the adequate
Well-known member
Name one scripture that you think has an obvious face value meaning that you see being twisted here,
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guest1
Guest
there is not one its like finding a needle in a haystack.
Yours Truly, Team Truth !
hope this helps !!!
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Theo1689
Well-known member
I could give you a hundred examples.
And you would deny every single one of them.
You missed the point of my post.
What YOU consider "straightforward", others DO NOT.
What WE consider "straightforward", YOU do not.
Can YOU show ME one Scripture that has an "obvious" (I assume you're meaning that we will all agree) face value meaning that you see being twisted here?
That's the point.
EVERYONE is biased here.
And those who deny that they're biased, are the most biased (IMO).
Which is one of the reasons why shouldn't cry "Victory!" on every point.
Which is one of the reasons why we shouldn't try to die on EVERY docrtinal hill.
Which is one of the reasons why the words "let's agree to disagree" are useful.
I'm sorry you missed my point.
Alexander the adequate
Well-known member
I asked for one to demontrate your claim.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Right after YOU demonstrate YOUR claim.
I just turned your argument around and applied it back to you.
Double standards much?
But I can give you TONS of straightforward verses that your side has to twist or deny or redefine:
Acts 13:48
Luke 14:23
John 3:16
John 3:18
John 6:44
John 8:34
John 10:26
John 10:28-29
Eph. 1:4
Eph. 2:1
Eph. 2:8-9
2 Pet. 3:9
1 John 5:1
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guest1
Guest
Yes I can . Genesis 1 through Revelations 22 .
Yours Truly, Team Truth !
hope this helps !!!
HealTheLand
Active member
work out... sounds like exercise... your own (mine / yours?) salvation (being saved) with .... ect.
for it is God - that's where one could say - that's God! - not you. but wait, what about fear... that's us
why fear ? didn't work out near enough - exercise? prepare the Way of the Lord (comes to mind)
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Alexander the adequate
Well-known member
Yes, you have already told me in our few interchanges that you are not that interested to discuss your own understandings of the Bible