Theo1689
Well-known member
So it's nothing but a worthless assumption on your part.
Proving your teachings are worthless.
John 6:44, for starters.
1John 5:1 regeneration before faith
- Thread starter Theo1689
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So it's nothing but a worthless assumption on your part.
Proving your teachings are worthless.
John 6:44, for starters.
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guest1
Guest
What does “ all “ mean ?
All those the Father gives me(AM) will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven(AN) not to do my will but to do the will(AO) of him who sent me.(AP) 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,(AQ) but raise them up at the last day.(AR) 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son(AS) and believes in him shall have eternal life,(AT) and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph,(AU)whose father and mother we know?(AV) How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”(AW)
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,(AX) and I will raise them up at the last day.
All those the Father gives me(AM) will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven(AN) not to do my will but to do the will(AO) of him who sent me.(AP) 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,(AQ) but raise them up at the last day.(AR) 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son(AS) and believes in him shall have eternal life,(AT) and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph,(AU)whose father and mother we know?(AV) How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”(AW)
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,(AX) and I will raise them up at the last day.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Wow... So when someone challenges you to show your teachings from Scripture, you simply disrespect them by "yawning" at them?
What an attrociously inept teacher you are...
(And you can quote me on that.)
Theo1689
Well-known member
All you do is ask questions, and have no answers.
Double standards much?
Maybe you should think twice before criticizing others?
Reformedguy
Well-known member
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guest1
Guest
Read the context of your pet verse I quoted from in John 6 ripped from its greater context
oops
John 6
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life,and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
This thread is not about the meaning of all. Good try. Start a thread and I will help you with that to
Theo1689
Well-known member
Everyone knows that your emoji means you're mocking us, and that you don't care about God's truth or the gospel, but only about insulting others and boasting about yourself.
But that's okay.
You don't seem to know what "all" means.
And (IMO) that should be a HUGE red flag that you should put on a coat of humility
When we're talking about a specific group of people, referring to "all" means that none of that GROUP is excluded. It does not mean that anyone is "added" to that group.
So if I'm talking about my class of students, and I refer to "all" of them, then none of MY STUDENTS is excluded.
If I'm talking about my family, and I say I'm going to give a gift to "all" of them, that means no one in my family will not get a gift. All of THEM are included. It does NOT mean that you will get a gift from me, as you are not in the group of "my family".
For instance, in John 3:16, it literally says "everyone believing-on-him" ("πας ο πιστευων"). So that particular verse includes ALL in the "believers" category. But it does not include "unbelievers", by definition.
As an administrative note, please remove the links when you copy-and-paste a post. You're only allowed two external links allowed per post, and someone might be swayed to report such posts for breaking the rules... Just sayin'...
So in this verse, "all" refers to everyone SPECIFICALLY in the group "given to Jesus by the Father". It doesn't include those not given to Jesus.
Did you notice that the group is LIMITED to "those he has given me", and doesn't include those NOT given to Him?
"them" - a SPECIFIC group.
This is referring to all those in SPECIFIC group of those who "look to the Son and believe in him", and EXCLUDES those who don't.
You're welcome.
Theo1689
Well-known member
If you think John 6:44 is an "isolated verse", you need to read James White's "Drawn By the Father", which is a comprehensive exegesis of John 6:35-45 (and you can even continue it on to v. 65), walking through the text verse by verse, phrase by phrase.
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guest1
Guest
Maybe at an impasse lol
Reformedguy
Well-known member
everything
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guest1
Guest
Maybe you need to explain Omni rofl
Have you ever stated that to reformedguy?
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guest1
Guest
Irony
I would be willing to bet he never has
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guest1
Guest
No it would never happen lol
David1701
Well-known member
No, it's not merely present resulting from perfect. It is, as I posted, a change to which the perfect refers, that results in the present (in 1 John 5:1), namely, having been born again. This makes all the difference, objectively, whether you try to ignore it or not.
The change that occurred in the past (having been born again), with the result continuing in the present, results in the present state of believing. This is not an equivalent context to the one you mentioned, since, although there is a perfect and a present, there is no change (at a point in time) to the which the perfect refers, and, therefore, no fixed reference point in the past, with respect to the present condition.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
That is not, in my experience here, or in reading, the argument as typically made. But if I assume your point, then language/syntax is defined by the circumstance, not the other way around. The relationship and meaning of the tenses is predicated on the whether the context is expressing change or not; in one case it means the perfect tense action is the direct cause of the present tense reality, but in another it doesn't mean that.
The simple truth of the matter is that both 1 John 5:1 and 5:10 describe a relational correlation between the states described by the present and perfect tense verbs. In other words, believing presently always means that believer has been born again, and the non-believer is always making God a liar. There is no intent of showing causation of one by the other, unless, as in 5:10, it is expressly stated that one precipitates the reality of the other.
Doug