Grace cannot be demanded

Theo1689

Well-known member
I hope everyone has seen the movie, "The Green Mile". If you haven't, you definitely should. But it has a great scene (which doesn't spoil the ending) that is a picture of grace.

Paul the prison guard (Tom Hanks) delivers some corn bread to John Coffey (Michael Clark Duncan), a prisoner on Death Row. He decides to give some of the corn bread to his friend "Del", also on death row. Another death row inmate, "Wild Bill" (Sam Rockwell), who was a "really bad man", begs for some corn bread too, but Coffey decides not to give him any. "Yours to do with as you please", Paul says.

If we are to believe what the anti-Calvinists teach, Coffey would be OBLIGATED to give some corn bread to Wild Bill, just because he gave some to Del. Either he has to give some to everyone, or he can't share with everyone. But that's not how it works. We are free to give gifts to who we choose, and nobody has the right to "demand" we give them something, if we don't want to.

And how much more so does God not have any oligation to give salvation, or even "a chance for salvation" to every one of His creations, if He does not wish to? Who can demand anything of God?

Rom. 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
 
I hope everyone has seen the movie, "The Green Mile". If you haven't, you definitely should. But it has a great scene (which doesn't spoil the ending) that is a picture of grace.

Paul the prison guard (Tom Hanks) delivers some corn bread to John Coffey (Michael Clark Duncan), a prisoner on Death Row. He decides to give some of the corn bread to his friend "Del", also on death row. Another death row inmate, "Wild Bill" (Sam Rockwell), who was a "really bad man", begs for some corn bread too, but Coffey decides not to give him any. "Yours to do with as you please", Paul says.

If we are to believe what the anti-Calvinists teach, Coffey would be OBLIGATED to give some corn bread to Wild Bill, just because he gave some to Del. Either he has to give some to everyone, or he can't share with everyone. But that's not how it works. We are free to give gifts to who we choose, and nobody has the right to "demand" we give them something, if we don't want to.

And how much more so does God not have any oligation to give salvation, or even "a chance for salvation" to every one of His creations, if He does not wish to? Who can demand anything of God?

Rom. 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Notice someone was questioning God despite the predestination ie he was libertarianly questioning God.

In the end of the predestination there was libertarianism in the mix ie "*because* ie libertarianly they sought it not by faith".

Romans 9:32 (KJV) Wherefore?
Because they sought it not by faith,
but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
 
If we are to believe what the anti-Calvinists teach, Coffey would be OBLIGATED to give some corn bread to Wild Bill, just because he gave some to Del. Either he has to give some to everyone, or he can't share with everyone. But that's not how it works. We are free to give gifts to who we choose, and nobody has the right to "demand" we give them something, if we don't want to.

And how much more so does God not have any oligation to give salvation, or even "a chance for salvation" to every one of His creations, if He does not wish to? Who can demand anything of God?

Rom. 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
But salvation is not as simple as being selective in sharing cornbread. God created the souls of those people who you say He has created for the sole purpose of torturing for eternity. The relationship that is appropriate is that of a father to his child, not of an inmate to a fellow inmate. If you have two kids, and you lavish your care on one why tossing the other into a oven to be burned alive, no sensible person would praise you for how loving you are to the preferred child would they? Even if you lavish care and blessing on the child who continually rebels against you while tossing the other rebellious kid into the oven, nobody would praise you for how loving you are.

Jesus invites us to use this father/son analogy in thinking about our Heavenly Father. See Matt. 7:9-11.
 
But salvation is not as simple as being selective in sharing cornbread. God created the souls of those people who you say He has created for the sole purpose of torturing for eternity. The relationship that is appropriate is that of a father to his child, not of an inmate to a fellow inmate. If you have two kids, and you lavish your care on one why tossing the other into a oven to be burned alive, no sensible person would praise you for how loving you are to the preferred child would they? Even if you lavish care and blessing on the child who continually rebels against you while tossing the other rebellious kid into the oven, nobody would praise you for how loving you are.

Jesus invites us to use this father/son analogy in thinking about our Heavenly Father. See Matt. 7:9-11.
This is the distinction, the Lost have Satan as their Father; not the Everlasting father as their father...

Everlasting father; from last night's Christmas Cantata ;)
 
This is the distinction, the Lost have Satan as their Father; not the Everlasting father as their father...
But in the context in which Jesus makes that claim (John 8:42-47), is it one's deeds that determines whether God or Satan is one's father. But God is everyone's Father in a natural sense. Paul even quotes the Greek poets on Mars Hill affirmatively on this point ("as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’" - Acts 17:28)
 
But in the context in which Jesus makes that claim (John 8:42-47), is it one's deeds that determines whether God or Satan is one's father. But God is everyone's Father in a natural sense. Paul even quotes the Greek poets on Mars Hill affirmatively on this point ("as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’" - Acts 17:28)
Let's take a break for a minute...

I can't commit to you that I will stay in one Verse, one Passage; or half the Bible. I've already committed to God to believe the Bible, and to agree All Scripture is Good for Doctrine. I need to give you something to think about, and I hope you don't dismiss it. Keeping someone attached to one Verse, is Boxing them in. I know that you don't want me to Box you in to anything. If I tried to Box you in to a Verse that teaches Jesus is a Man, all the while I intended to keep you away from any Verse that teaches Jesus is God; I would be trying to deceive you...

I am currently on a Rant about Posters being Fair to one another. Sure, I believe John 8: 42-47. I'm being Fair. I ask you not to Box me in...
 
God created the souls of those people who you say He has created for the sole purpose of torturing for eternity.

That is what the Bible teaches.
Why do you refuse to believe the Bible?
I have yet to see an alternative exegesis of Romans 9.
Your side keeps RUNNING AWAY from it.

The relationship that is appropriate is that of a father to his child, not of an inmate to a fellow inmate.

This is false and unBiblical.
Those who are destined for hell are NOT God's "children".
God's children are those whom He elects, and adopts as His own.

If you have two kids, and you lavish your care on one why tossing the other into a oven to be burned alive, no sensible person would praise you for how loving you are to the preferred child would they?

Invalid analogy, as the one in the oven is not the man's child.

Even if you lavish care and blessing on the child who continually rebels against you while tossing the other rebellious kid into the oven, nobody would praise you for how loving you are.

The "kid" in the oven is not the man's child.

Jesus invites us to use this father/son analogy in thinking about our Heavenly Father. See Matt. 7:9-11.

But you need to use the analogy CORRECTLY, which you are not doing.
 
But in the context in which Jesus makes that claim (John 8:42-47), is it one's deeds that determines whether God or Satan is one's father.

That is incorrect.
It is one's deeds which IDENTIFY whether God or Satan is one's father.
God's election is what DETERMINES it.

But God is everyone's Father in a natural sense.

Wrong.
This is simply unBiblical.
What do you mean by "a natural sense"?
God is everyone's CREATOR.
He is not everyone's "Father".

Paul even quotes the Greek poets on Mars Hill affirmatively on this point ("as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’" - Acts 17:28)

Yes, that simply means we "came" from God (as our CREATOR).
 
I hope everyone has seen the movie, "The Green Mile". If you haven't, you definitely should. But it has a great scene (which doesn't spoil the ending) that is a picture of grace.

Paul the prison guard (Tom Hanks) delivers some corn bread to John Coffey (Michael Clark Duncan), a prisoner on Death Row. He decides to give some of the corn bread to his friend "Del", also on death row. Another death row inmate, "Wild Bill" (Sam Rockwell), who was a "really bad man", begs for some corn bread too, but Coffey decides not to give him any. "Yours to do with as you please", Paul says.

If we are to believe what the anti-Calvinists teach, Coffey would be OBLIGATED to give some corn bread to Wild Bill, just because he gave some to Del. Either he has to give some to everyone, or he can't share with everyone. But that's not how it works. We are free to give gifts to who we choose, and nobody has the right to "demand" we give them something, if we don't want to.

And how much more so does God not have any oligation to give salvation, or even "a chance for salvation" to every one of His creations, if He does not wish to? Who can demand anything of God?

Rom. 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Well said.
 
But salvation is not as simple as being selective in sharing cornbread. God created the souls of those people who you say He has created for the sole purpose of torturing for eternity. The relationship that is appropriate is that of a father to his child, not of an inmate to a fellow inmate. If you have two kids, and you lavish your care on one why tossing the other into a oven to be burned alive, no sensible person would praise you for how loving you are to the preferred child would they? Even if you lavish care and blessing on the child who continually rebels against you while tossing the other rebellious kid into the oven, nobody would praise you for how loving you are.

Jesus invites us to use this father/son analogy in thinking about our Heavenly Father. See Matt. 7:9-11.
That isn't the point. Salvation is God's to give, it is not ours to take. There is a reason it is said to be a gift. One does not take a gift. One receives a gift that is given. If the gift isn't given, there is nothing to receive. I am also sure how giving corn bread to one person, but deciding not to give it to someone else, lines up with burning one person at the stake, but deciding not to burn someone else at the stake. As with your child analogy, they are not at all related. If you read Ephesians 1, the actual choice is to adopt one person, but not adopt the other.
 
satan is the actual father, not symbolically, of esau, since before this fallen time..

that is esau ...who can keep his horrible planet of the apes(and this includes lots of pastors and scholars)

among the confused right now (jacob, most christians) are those whose father is God and who will be rescued from this earth

those are 2 separate groups
 
are we not to tell Everyone the cornbread is offered to them?

or are we to tell Everyone -
"God most likely didn't choose you to get the cornbread, but I know He did choose me.."?

We do tell them. However, if God has not chosen them, they aren't going to accept. Part of the reason is they aren't going to understand, considering the natural man is incapable of understanding spiritual things.
 
are we not to tell Everyone the cornbread is offered to them?

The Law:

”You don’t deserve any cornbread.

The gospel:

”God might give you cornbread anyway.”

or are we to tell Everyone -
"God most likely didn't choose you to get the cornbread,

Why would we say something we don’t know to be true?

but I know He did choose me.."?

Why wouild we say anything like that?
We didn’t deserve cornbread either, and it’s irrelevant to “everyone’s” situation.
 
is cornbread available for all should they Believe:? (and We don't know who will do we...)

is there only so much cornbread about?
God is unable to provide cornbread for All?

I believe God chose some to Believe and have that relationship with Him - and cornbread is applied to human Believers
not that God chose some specifically to get cornbread
does the Bible teach the later?

even if God brings someone to Belief, he has no obligaton to give them cornbread, as they still don't deserve it
except He promised to do so should they Believe
 
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are we not to tell Everyone the cornbread is offered to them?

or are we to tell Everyone -
"God most likely didn't choose you to get the cornbread, but I know He did choose me.."?

We are to tell everyone there is cornbread available IF YOU WANT IT. Problem is the natural man hates cornbread and wants nothing to do with it. Hence God must intervene, change replace your heart of stone with a heart of flesh. The Holy Spirit then gives you understanding and you recieve your gift of faith/belief.

SOLA DEO GLORIA
 
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