LDS prophet on Seer Stone in the Hat

[Markk]

Chuckle, yes seer stones is correct not the seer stone singular..... neither one of you understand meanings....
Plural: more then one. Like the stones in the Brest Plates or spectacles. Totally embarrassing for you guys.

Singular and past tense...

"During the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith apparently used both of these instruments—the interpreters and his seer stone—interchangeably."

Seer Stones

Seer Stones

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

"These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters."

Gospel Topics Essays

Gospel Topics Essays

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English.

A Treasured Testament

A Treasured Testament

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Here it is plural...because it associates the Interpreters...which are two stones with the single egg-shaped stone.

...."And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat...."

The Book of Mormon Is Tangible Evidence of the Restoration

President Russell M. Nelson and Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President, discuss the translation of the Book of Mormon at the site in Pennsylvania where Joseph Smith translated it.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Also...Singular, present tense.

... "Featured in the new volume are photographs of a brown seer stone likely used by the Prophet Joseph Smith in his translation of the Book of Mormon. ..."

Book of Mormon Printer's Manuscript, Photos of Seer Stone Featured in New Book - Church News and Events

A new volume of the Joseph Smith Papers project featuring the printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon was released August 4 by the Church Historian's Press, an imprint of the Church History Department.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Richard7]

Singular and past tense...

"During the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith apparently used both of these instruments—the interpreters and his seer stone—interchangeably."

Seer Stones

Seer Stones

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Deflection, you have not dealt with the blunder you guys made... big blunder good buddy.
Seer Stones... plural, so JS must have had to seer stones or just maybe he used the stones on Urim and Thummin.
Chuckle.

"These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters."

How is two stones interchangeable with one stone? whoops. Just maybe the term Urim and Thummim to mean the two Stones in the Urim and Thummim were placed in the hat... what ya all think, maybe Richard is on to something.

Gospel Topics Essays

Gospel Topics Essays

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English.

A Treasured Testament

A Treasured Testament

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Here it is plural...because it associates the Interpreters...which are two stones with the single egg-shaped stone.

...."And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat...."

Yep, he used the two Urim annd Thummim STONES and put them in a hat.... where is the rest of the text?
You're embarrassing yourself still Markk...

The Book of Mormon Is Tangible Evidence of the Restoration

President Russell M. Nelson and Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President, discuss the translation of the Book of Mormon at the site in Pennsylvania where Joseph Smith translated it.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Also...Singular, present tense.

... "Featured in the new volume are photographs of a brown seer stone likely used by the Prophet Joseph Smith in his translation of the Book of Mormon. ..."

Book of Mormon Printer's Manuscript, Photos of Seer Stone Featured in New Book - Church News and Events

A new volume of the Joseph Smith Papers project featuring the printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon was released August 4 by the Church Historian's Press, an imprint of the Church History Department.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

"Likely" as in plausible, conceivable ... wow you really know how to stretch the truth...
Give me something solid, believable and transparent...

 

[Magdalena]

Straining at gnats, trying to make the number of stones an issue. It’s just a pitiful attempt to distract attention from the truths that you don’t want to look at. You’re embarrassing yourself, Ralf.

 

[Markk]

How is two stones interchangeable with one stone? whoops. Just maybe the term Urim and Thummim to mean the two Stones in the Urim and Thummim were placed in the hat... what ya all think, maybe Richard is on to something.

LOL...yes you are on to something Ralf...you are getting closer. The Urim and Thummim are either the Interpreters, or the single seer stone. The interpreters are the two stones in the silver bows, or spectacles, both are referred to as the Urim and Thummim respectively.

Ralf it's good now you admit stones were put into a hat to interpret the BOM...we are moving the right directions.

Focus...

Yep, he used the two Urim annd Thummim STONES and put them in a hat.... where is the rest of the text?
You're embarrassing yourself still Markk...

When Joseph Smith received the golden plates in 1827, he also received a translation instrument with them, “two stones in silver bows” used by “‘seers’ in ancient or former times” (Joseph Smith—History 1:35). This instrument was referred to in the Book of Mormon as the “interpreters.” During the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith apparently used both of these instruments—the interpreters and his seer stone—interchangeably. They worked in much the same way, and the early Saints sometimes used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the seer stone as well as the interpreters. The Prophet also received several of the revelations found today in the Doctrine and Covenants by means of these instruments of revelation.3 As Joseph became more experienced in spiritual matters, he eventually started receiving revelation without these aids.4

Yep, he used the two Urim annd Thummim STONES and put them in a hat.... where is the rest of the text?
You're embarrassing yourself still Markk...

Focus...Did you read the quotes and links... The first paragraph is the interpreters (two stones), the second paragraph is the single stone joseph got years before he received the plates and interpreters.

"... Joseph Smith and his scribes wrote of two instruments used in translating the Book of Mormon. According to witnesses of the translation, when Joseph looked into the instruments, the words of scripture appeared in English. One instrument, called in the Book of Mormon the “interpreters,” is better known to Latter-day Saints today as the “Urim and Thummim.” Joseph found the interpreters buried in the hill with the plates.16 Those who saw the interpreters described them as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. The Book of Mormon referred to this instrument, together with its breastplate, as a device “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.”17

The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.” ..."

"Likely" as in plausible, conceivable ... wow you really know how to stretch the truth...
Give me something solid, believable and transparent...

No, likely as is President Nelson saying "we know" it was used t translate the BoM. And likely as in "used" as the essays read.

But again, at least you concede he translated the BoM with his head in his hat with stones...we just have to now narrow this down.

 

[Richard7]

Straining at gnats, trying to make the number of stones an issue. It’s just a pitiful attempt to distract attention from the truths that you don’t want to look at. You’re embarrassing yourself, Ralf.

What is you proof that the seer stone was used in the translation, or are we going to see silence as usual.... first hand accounts only Magdalena.

 

[Magdalena]

What is you proof that the seer stone was used in the translation, or are we going to see silence as usual.... first hand accounts only Magdalena.

I’ve posted many. See post #21, for example. When are you going to start reading what we write?

 

[Markk]

I’ve posted many. See post #21, for example. When are you going to start reading what we write?

I believe in regards of the stone being in the hat and translating the BoM, the question should be..."what proof in regard to current LDS teachings, is there that the Seer stone was not used. " Ralf is hanging onto an old narrative that is long gone.

 

[Theo1689]

Nelson is clear and even demonstrates he put a stone in the hat and likens it to a cell phone.

I've enjoyed writing parody lyrics since the 1980's.
I just stumbled upon something I wrote back in 2005:

(Sung to the tune of "Yankee Doodle")

Joseph Smith, he came to town,
riding on a pony.
Threw some seer stones in his hat
and said it was Moroni.

Joseph Smith came to Carthage
riding in a wagon.
Speculated, wrote it down
and called it, revelation!

 

[Richard7]

I’ve posted many. See post #21, for example. When are you going to start reading what we write?

I have and you have not given any creditability to David Whitmer a proven liar and enemy of the Church... next?
I also thought you put me on block, what happened since I found it a big relief not having to post to you anymore.

 

[Richard7]

I believe in regards of the stone being in the hat and translating the BoM, the question should be..."what proof in regard to current LDS teachings, is there that the Seer stone was not used. " Ralf is hanging onto an old narrative that is long gone.

Well good buddy, I have JS, Book of Mormon, Moroni, Mosiah, the Witness to the Book of Mormon who never stated that a angel showed then anything other than the Gold plates, Urim and Thummim, the Sword of Laben and the Liahona. David Whitmer the one mostly quoted was a excommunicated deceiver, liar and enemy of JS... The evidence is overwhelming and you know it Markk. Interesting your sources usually end up in speculations on your part and have so far not given us a first hand account, why is that? David Whitmer is a phony and hated JS. So am I to believe him before JS, Oliver Cowdrey, the Book of Mormon, Moroni and many others who were pure in heart unlike David.

 

[Richard7]

I've enjoyed writing parody lyrics since the 1980's.
I just stumbled upon something I wrote back in 2005:

(Sung to the tune of "Yankee Doodle")

Joseph Smith, he came to town,
riding on a pony.
Threw some seer stones in his hat
and said it was Moroni.

Joseph Smith came to Carthage
riding in a wagon.
Speculated, wrote it down
and called it, revelation!

Nothing dealing with evidence and mostly my friend a waste of my time and your time, go back to your Christian Forum, I'm sure the love you there. chuckle.

 

[Markk]

Well good buddy, I have JS, Book of Mormon, Moroni, Mosiah, the Witness to the Book of Mormon who never stated that a angel showed then anything other than the Gold plates, Urim and Thummim, the Sword of Laben and the Liahona. David Whitmer the one mostly quoted was a excommunicated deceiver, liar and enemy of JS... The evidence is overwhelming and you know it Markk. Interesting your sources usually end up in speculations on your part and have so far not given us a first hand account, why is that? David Whitmer is a phony and hated JS. So am I to believe him before JS, Oliver Cowdrey, the Book of Mormon, Moroni and many others who were pure in heart unlike David.

Ralf,
Emma, David Whitmer, Martin Harris, all firsthand accounts, and others all said he did it with a stone in his hat. President Nelson, and the 14 other prophets, by default agree with Nelson and correlation. The evidence is overwhelming that he used the stone in his hat...it is not even debatable, it is an official teaching.

I will note that you believe David Whitmer is a liar. You claim he is an enemy of Smith; did you know that Oliver Cowdery accused Joseph of having an affair with Fanny Alger? He was excommunicated for it. His hearing reads in part "For seeking to destroying the character of President Joseph Smith jr."

David and Oliver, who were brother in laws, were excommunicated days apart, and both equally opposed Joseph Smith, and accused him of basically a fallen prophet. Oliver was hardly pure in heart towards Joseph. He did not come back to the church until Joseph was dead and was in bad health and actually died in his friend's house, David Whitmer whom you claim is a liar.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf,
Emma, David Whitmer, Martin Harris, all firsthand accounts, and others all said he did it with a stone in his hat. President Nelson, and the 14 other prophets, by default agree with Nelson and correlation. The evidence is overwhelming that he used the stone in his hat...it is not even debatable, it is an official teaching.

I will note that you believe David Whitmer is a liar. You claim he is an enemy of Smith; did you know that Oliver Cowdery accused Joseph of having an affair with Fanny Alger? He was excommunicated for it. His hearing reads in part "For seeking to destroying the character of President Joseph Smith jr."

David and Oliver, who were brother in laws, were excommunicated days apart, and both equally opposed Joseph Smith, and accused him of basically a fallen prophet. Oliver was hardly pure in heart towards Joseph. He did not come back to the church until Joseph was dead and was in bad health and actually died in his friend's house, David Whitmer whom you claim is a liar. This makes no sense, are you claiming whitmer or Oliver came back to church...

Emma only saw him use the Urim and Thummim, she gave her account to her son, just years before her death. She is borrowing from others who claimed to have seen him use the seer stone... do the timeline yourself Markk. Both Joseph Smith and Oliver stated the Urim and Thummim was used in the translation.... If Oliver stated that, then we know he was a scribe way after Emma who proceeded him...and when Oliver began to scribe it was the Urim and Thummim he claimed was being used.

It's obvious you want to deflect, please stay on topic and please start a new topic on Oliver and his claims... Oliver also went back to the Church and was re-baptized.

David Whitmer never came back to church... bogus reporting Markk.

David Whitmer lived outside the Church for 50 years following his excommunication—never to return but never to deny his testimony.

The Last Witness of the Three Witnesses

To the end of their lives, the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon never denied their testimonies, and you can bear a firm witness too.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Magdalena]

Emma only saw him use the Urim and Thummim, she gave her account to her son, just years before her death. She is borrowing from others who claimed to have seen him use the seer stone... do the timeline yourself Markk. Both Joseph Smith and Oliver stated the Urim and Thummim was used in the translation.... If Oliver stated that, then we know he was a scribe way after Emma who proceeded him...and when Oliver began to scribe it was the Urim and Thummim he claimed was being used.

It's obvious you want to deflect, please stay on topic and please start a new topic on Oliver and his claims... Oliver also went back to the Church and was re-baptized.

David Whitmer never came back to church... bogus reporting Markk.

David Whitmer lived outside the Church for 50 years following his excommunication—never to return but never to deny his testimony.

The Last Witness of the Three Witnesses

To the end of their lives, the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon never denied their testimonies, and you can bear a firm witness too.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

No, she said he used the urim and thummim only for the part that was lost, then he used the seer stone. She was there. What is your problem with that?

 

[Richard7]

No, she said he used the urim and thummim only for the part that was lost, then he used the seer stone. She was there. What is your problem with that?

I addressed that Magdalena, she gave that report to her son a few years before her death... she is borrowing from David Whitmere and others, she helped with the translation when the Urim and Thummin was only being used which we know for the reason Oliver followed right after her.
The plates were never shown to anyone other then the three witnesses and then the eight witnesses.... the seer stone was never shown by Moroni or God to the 3 and 8 witnesses, why not Mag, wasn't it suppose to have been the major means of the translation and yet they were never taken back my Moroni with the plates, Laban's sword, the compass and Urim and thummim.... God nor Moroni never provided JS with the seer stone, they were found in a well... chuckle.

 

[Magdalena]

I have and you have not given any creditability to David Whitmer a proven liar and enemy of the Church... next?
I also thought you put me on block, what happened since I found it a big relief not having to post to you anymore.

Get over it.

 

[Magdalena]

I addressed that Magdalena, she gave that report to her son a few years before her death... she is borrowing from David Whitmere and others, she helped with the translation when the Urim and Thummin was only being used which we know for the reason Oliver followed right after her.
The plates were never shown to anyone other then the three witnesses and then the eight witnesses.... the seer stone was never shown by Moroni or God to the 3 and 8 witnesses, why not Mag, wasn't it suppose to have been the major means of the translation and yet they were never taken back my Moroni with the plates, Laban's sword, the compass and Urim and thummim.... God nor Moroni never provided JS with the seer stone, they were found in a well... chuckle.

You can’t change what people say to fit your own agenda. She was his wife. She was there. You weren’t.

 

[Markk]

Emma only saw him use the Urim and Thummim, she gave her account to her son, just years before her death. She is borrowing from others who claimed to have seen him use the seer stone

false...CFR that she "borrowed" the account...and the U&T is the Seer stone by most accounts.

From the essays...

The scribes who assisted with the translation unquestionably believed that Joseph translated by divine power. Joseph’s wife Emma explained that she “frequently wrote day after day” at a small table in their house in Harmony, Pennsylvania. She described Joseph “sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.”

Click here ralf

 

[Markk]

It's obvious you want to deflect, please stay on topic and please start a new topic on Oliver and his claims... Oliver also went back to the Church and was re-baptized.

David Whitmer never came back to church... bogus reporting Markk.

How am I deflecting...I never said David came back, I stated Oliver did at the end of his life, was to sick to make it back to Utah, and died at Davids home in Missouri.

Read again what I wrote slowly on post 33...Oliver died at Davids house, they were friends...yet you claim David is a liar and a enemy of JS, yet they were very good friends and David took care of Oliver in his dying days. Remember also Oliver said that Joseph committed adultery and was ex'd for that and as far as I know never took that accusation back.

Start a thread about Oliver if you want...we can talk about how he felt about JS money digging and get into his excommunication.

 

[Markk]

No, she said he used the urim and thummim only for the part that was lost, then he used the seer stone. She was there. What is your problem with that?

Mags, I agree. There was never a U&T though in the classic sense, never... only the seer stone, which early saints called the U&T. There was in some accounts the spectacles or interpreters, also called the U&T which the church teaches...but Joseph even called his stone the interpreter which muddies that. But almost all historians agree that only the stone, either the brown or white one, was used for the translation they have today, and for good reason once you start digging deep.

I'm super busy with work, but when I get a chance, I will paste some data that shows how another Seer, I think it was Lawarence? but don't hold me to it; but basically, they had a "seer war" with Joseph, and forced Joseph to see the spectacles with his stone, by saying he, Lawarence, saw the spectacles with the plates through his seer stone, and asking Joseph if he saw them too, which he had to say he did. It is really an interesting view.