Original Sin...

Are we not the offspring of Adam?

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Man gained independence from God in his sinful action.

I don't understand your reasoning. By one man sin entered this world and death by sin.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Sin is not something inherited, one man is not accountable for another man's sin, the soul that sinneth it shall die meaning wach man is accountable for his own sins....."Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression..." Rom 5:14. If death is a result of all inheriting or being held accountable for Adam's sin then all die as a result of that one, same exact sin, yet Paul makes a distinction in showing people died as a result of sinning a sin not after the similitutde of Adam's sin, they died as a result of their own sinning.

You cite Rom 5:12 that ends by NOT say 'because all inherited Adam's sin', but instead ends by saying "because all sinned" which shows personal culpability in people choosing to sin different and various sin from Adam's sin. In the first 3 chapters of Romans Paul goes to great length to prove all, Jew and Gentile have sinned. In Rom 3 Paul cites many verse from the OT that proves the Jews were sinners as much as the Gentiles. Yet no where in these chapters does Paul even remotely elude to the idea that all, Jew and Gentile, were innately born sinners. Instead Paul proves they are sinners by citing transgressions Jews and Gentiles have committed for sin is transgression of the law (1 Jn 3:4) and not just an idea or substance that is passed between people.

Adam nor Eve were created sinners but created with a free will and told and knew what God's law was to not eat of a certain tree. They chose to sin by eating of that tree and then by committing that transgression they became sinners. Likewise we today follow in the steps of Adam and Eve in that we are not created/born sinners but have a free will and have been given God's word (Bible) and can learn and know God's law but then choose to sin against that law and then we become sinners. Since sinning is a willful choice, (not necessary due to how one is innately born), then God can rightly, justly condemn the choices man makes for himself.
 
Thanks for answering...

No one should favor Man-Made ideas about the Bible; but what about the Bible's teaching on Original Sin? Is pain in childbirth an Unconditional Consequence of the Curse for the Fall of Mankind?
Men do suffer CONSEQUENCES due to Adam's sinning but man does not inherit sin or is born innately with Adam's sin. People die as a CONSEQUENCE of a drunk driver's sinning but those victims do not inherit the drunk driver's sins. Infants die physically as a consequence of Adam sinning not due to innately inheriting any sin or sin nature from Adam at birth.
We all will die physically as a consequence of Adam's sinning but all will be raised from the dead as a consequence of Christ's resurrection, (1 Cor 15:22) some resurrected to eternal life the rest resurrected to eternal condemnation. If 1 Cor 15:22a teaches "all" spiritually die as a result of being born having UNCONDITIONALLY inherited Adam's sin or a sin nature then 22b teaches the truth that same "all" will be UNCONDITIONALLY saved, made spiritually 'alive' by Christ.
 
Men do suffer CONSEQUENCES due to Adam's sinning but man does not inherit sin or is born innately with Adam's sin. People die as a CONSEQUENCE of a drunk driver's sinning but those victims do not inherit the drunk driver's sins. Infants die physically as a consequence of Adam sinning not due to innately inheriting any sin or sin nature from Adam. We all will die physically as a consequence of Adam's sinning but all will be raised from the died as a consequence of Christ's resurrection, (1 Cor 15:22) some resurrected to eternal life the rest resurrected to eternal condemnation. If 1 Cor 15:22a teaches "all" spiritually die as a result of being born having UNCONDITIONALLY inherited Adam's sin or a sin nature then 22b teaches the truth that same "all" will be UNCONDITIONALLY saved, made spiritually 'alive' by Christ.
Can you tell me why pain in childbirth is not an Unconditional Consequence for All generations of women, for being in-Adam? It's a generational Curse, right?
 
Tanks for responding. I'll go just one more further; why is it not okay to have true Doctrine and Theology without the words pertaining to it being in the Bible? These ARE the Theology Boards. The Hypostatic Union is true despite the title not being in the Bible...

So now we've established that it isn't described as a curse in the bible. Progress.

If the word "curse" was completely absent from the relevant passage, then you could make the argument "without the words pertaining to it being in the bible". However in the relevant passage, two things are said to be cursed and the word "curse" is conspicuously absent where your theology demands it. The conspicuous absence of the word "curse" when it should be present is a sign that God is saying something. Taking the liberty to assume your doctrine into the passage in light of those facts is outside the bounds of good bible study.

The Hypostatic Union is true despite the title not being in the Bible...

If it was only the title not being in the bible that would be one thing.
 
Adam still had access after sinning until he was removed
he had already died somehow

In the passage death is described: "from dust you are, and to dust you shall return". He did not return to dust and thus can't be said to have died.

"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” - therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3

Read the passage: having access to the tree of life was a necessary part of living forever.
 
I'm glad you asked for clarification...

'Unconditional Consequences' is a term I use to support 'Unconditional Election'. When almost every Christian believes in the Unconditional Consequences of the Fall, the foot is in the door for the Unconditional Consequences of Election to be the God's honest Truth. If you are used to me by now, you know that I like to use a play on words to get my thoughts across better; Like Prevenient faith, Unmerited Election, or Filthy-Rag faith, etc. The Truth is, the Curse of the Fall is either 'Real Participation' as Ken Hammond said (but then the Consequences wouldn't be Unconditional/Unmerited); or Adam is our Federal Head and his Curse is Unconditionally our Curse. Pain in Childbirth is an Unconditional Consequence of the Fall of Mankind. Election is an Unconditional Consequence of the Choice of God. So I decided to get Christians to agree that Unconditional Consequences are true of the Bible regarding Original Sin, then use this 'shared belief' to try and get them to start believing in Unconditional Election...

Tactics...
I hope we complement each other because I am more of the exacting nature, detailed and specific, reliant upon the word as stated when properly exegeted and on the occasion I resort to word play It will usually come accompanied with an emoticon so the reader knows.


For the record: Unconditional Election is simply the position God based His selection (election) of those He saves based solely on His will and His purpose and not any condition of the sinner being saved..... other than the fact the sinner has sinned and is a sinner and is in need of saving. The only thing we contribute to our conversion is the sin from which we have been saved. UE is not that no conditions exist, only that none of them exist on the part of the unregenerate sinner.
 
Okay, let's slow it down then. Is pain during Childbirth a result of the Fall of Man?
Pain, suffering death are consequences of Adam sinning. Before Adam sinned, I see the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise with no pain or death, they had a tree of life to eat from. Yet as a consequence of Adam sinning man was removed from that paradise away from the tree of life and now all suffer and die as a consequence of Adam sinning, not due to inheriting sin/sin nature from Adam.
 
Pain, suffering death are consequences of Adam sinning. Before Adam sinned, I see the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise with no pain or death, they had a tree of life to eat from. Yet as a consequence of Adam sinning man was removed from that paradise away from the tree of life and now all suffer and die as a consequence of Adam sinning, not due to inheriting sin/sin nature from Adam.
I like what you said, except the last part...
 
Do you accept the Doctrine of Original Sin?
Of course not!!! I happily provided MY OWN SIN, and inherited NOTHING from Adam, or anybody else. I don't have a "SIN NATURE" (another theological invention) I have a HUMAN NATURE, and how that works is presented nicely in James 1.

Adam and Eve WERE NEVER CURSED. The Earth was cursed, and the Serpent was cursed. ANd Adam's "nature" never changed, but his environment did.
 
Of course not!!! I happily provided MY OWN SIN, and inherited NOTHING from Adam, or anybody else. I don't have a "SIN NATURE" (another theological invention) I have a HUMAN NATURE, and how that works is presented nicely in James 1.

Adam and Eve WERE NEVER CURSED. The Earth was cursed, and the Serpent was cursed. ANd Adam's "nature" never changed, but his environment did.
Why do you not accept that a woman's pain in childbirth is a result of Eve being Cursed by God?

Do you believe the Serpent was Cursed by God?
 
Of course not!!! I happily provided MY OWN SIN, and inherited NOTHING from Adam, or anybody else. I don't have a "SIN NATURE" (another theological invention) I have a HUMAN NATURE, and how that works is presented nicely in James 1.

Adam and Eve WERE NEVER CURSED. The Earth was cursed, and the Serpent was cursed. ANd Adam's "nature" never changed, but his environment did.
We inherited “death” both physical and spiritual from Adam,and yes it was and is a curse resulting from Adam’s disobedience.
 
he died spiritually
his descendants since are born spiritually dead
and with a rebel Sin nature
You have a like from me and from Leatherneck; see what I say about Original Sin? Original Sin makes the biggest difference between Arminians/Calvinists, and Traditionalists/Liberals...

It is THE root problem...
 
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Of course not!!! I happily provided MY OWN SIN, and inherited NOTHING from Adam, or anybody else. I don't have a "SIN NATURE" (another theological invention) I have a HUMAN NATURE, and how that works is presented nicely in James 1.

Adam and Eve WERE NEVER CURSED. The Earth was cursed, and the Serpent was cursed. ANd Adam's "nature" never changed, but his environment did.
And where do you get all this nonsense from bob?
 
There WAS NO "CURSE" on Eve.

Gen 3:14
Bob, there was no Curse on Eve??

Genesis 3:16 NIV; To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Like I said to others, I'll talk to you for a while, if you do not ignore the obvious...
 
Bob, there was no Curse on Eve??

Genesis 3:16 NIV; To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Like I said to others, I'll talk to you for a while, if you do not ignore the obvious...
When people believe what they want to believe and see what they want to see, it becomes the norm.

The obvious isn’t their norm.
 
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