Romans4

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Is Satan actually a god? No.

Bonnie---Of course Satan isn't a god.

I suppose both of you will have to take that up with the scriptures:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Every sinner willl be punished according to his deeds. Every Christian is given the GIFT of eternal life and is indwelt by the Sprit.

There seems to be a condition to that, as to the Spirit-- according to the scriptures:

Acts 5:31-32---King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Both believer and non-believer will be judged according to works--and that for life or damnation:1

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That testifies all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation.

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

How does that differ from other testimonies?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
I suppose both of you will have to take that up with the scriptures:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Or take it up with Mormons who say that celestial marriage is a requirement for exaltation plus multiple other requirements not met by many others.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I suppose both of you will have to take that up with the scriptures:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Well you’ve also said you think that calling the judges gods means they’re real gods. They’re not. But it’s the same thing here. Small “g” god. Same category as idols, fake gods, a word to describe something or someone people think has power, myths. But you’ll notice the end of the quote talks about the real (G)od. The only God.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:
  1. We must be baptized.
  2. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
  3. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  4. We must receive the temple endowment.
  5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.
In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

  1. Love God and our neighbors.
  2. Keep the commandments.
  3. Repent of our wrongdoings.
  4. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
  5. Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
  6. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
  7. Have family and individual prayers every day
  8. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
  9. Study the scriptures.
  10. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
  11. .https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng



  12. Which of the Mormon gods met these requirements?
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:
  1. We must be baptized.
  2. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
  3. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  4. We must receive the temple endowment.
  5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.
Not in that order, but, it does appear that we must at least be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. Some people get married before any of that, but they are all obtainable, even after one is dead. That's for exaltation, the ability to continue the seeds, but these are not the requirements for salvation in the kingdom of God, only two of those are required, per the New Testament, per Jesus Christ himself and those are:
  1. Baptism
  2. Receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Without those, no one can enter the kingdom of God.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
  1. Love God and our neighbors.
  2. Keep the commandments.
  3. Repent of our wrongdoings.
  4. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
  5. Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
  6. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
  7. Have family and individual prayers every day
  8. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
  9. Study the scriptures.
  10. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

It seems you got carried away there. I don't see an issue with any of these. It seems to me that people who actually believe in Jesus Christ would do these anyway. Don't y ou have to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Well you’ve also said you think that calling the judges gods means they’re real gods. They’re not.

Are you saying the scriptures have God standing in the congregation of the mighty--the gods of the Divine Council--which do not exist?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.


You do realize there is a consensus among scholars now-- that ancient Israel believed they were real gods of the Divine Council--including the Biblical authors?

But it’s the same thing here. Small “g” god.

Small god is still a god.

So--where do we find the capital "G" here?

polytheistic​



adjective
pertaining to, characterized by, or adhering to polytheism, the doctrine that there is more than one god or many gods:
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Are you saying the scriptures have God standing in the congregation of the mighty--the gods of the Divine Council--which do not exist?

Psalm 82:1---King James Version
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.


You do realize there is a consensus among scholars now-- that ancient Israel believed they were real gods of the Divine Council--including the Biblical authors?



Small god is still a god.

So--where do we find the capital "G" here?

polytheistic​



adjective
pertaining to, characterized by, or adhering to polytheism, the doctrine that there is more than one god or many gods:
No, small “g” are false gods… god of the sun, Zeus, golden calves, god of this world, god of fertility, and on and on. Just because someone calls something a god, or worships it, doesn’t make it a real god. There is only one God, past present and future.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
No, small “g” are false gods… god of the sun, Zeus, golden calves, god of this world, god of fertility, and on and on.

Where do we find any such designation as "Zeus" or "god of the sun"--in the Biblical text?

Mag--these weren't golden calves either:

Psalm 82:1-6---King James Version
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High

How can the gods which judge and are children of the most High--be golden calves? How can the "congregation of the mighty" --which God stands in, with the gods--not be real?

One may call them "false"--but they were real gods. Children of the Most High--according to the Biblical writers.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No, small “g” are false gods… god of the sun, Zeus, golden calves, god of this world, god of fertility, and on and on. Just because someone calls something a god, or worships it, doesn’t make it a real god. There is only one God, past present and future.
This is most certainly true.
 

Janice Bower

Well-known member
I suppose both of you will have to take that up with the scriptures:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Lower case g refers to a false god.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Lower case g refers to a false god.
Actually, "Satan" is not in the original Greek in this sentence. The translator just assumed Paul meant Satan. But he could just as easily have meant worldly appetites, since elsewhere, Paul refers to those whose "God is their belly ".
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Actually, "Satan" is not in the original Greek in this sentence.

There are numerous terms found in Biblical translations which aren't found in the ancient manuscripts.

The translator just assumed Paul meant Satan.

Most scholars do believe it's a reference to satan--the "god of this world".

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Or take it up with Mormons who say that celestial marriage is a requirement for exaltation plus multiple other requirements not met by many others.

Mormons aren't responsible for this translation:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
He’s no more a God than a golden calf is.

Again--you might want to take that up with the scriptures:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

So--is there a difference between a golden calf--and a living, real being?
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Mormons aren't responsible for this translation:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
That doesn’t address the Mormon requirement of celestial marriage, which was the topic of the post.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Again--you might want to take that up with the scriptures:

2 Corinthians 4:4---New Living Translation
4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

So--is there a difference between a golden calf--and a living, real being?
Not when you’re talking about them both being false gods (lower case “g”).

There is only one God.
 
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