Sufficient for all Efficient for some Fallacy !

[American Gothic]

So you're saying no one will ever see heaven?
I'm sorry, I have to disagree.

you said the Elect were, at least at one time or to a certain extant, Lost
or else you believe they were Saved when they were Elected before the foundation of the World
which is it? at what point was Salvation applied (or whatever)?

I'm not omniscient.
I'm not privy to the identity of the individuals in the church.
That's up to God.
And I'm not Him.

did Adam live in the Age of Grace? as we are...
do you hold to a concept of distinct Ages like that? (granted, salvation is always by grace)

 

[Theo1689]

you said the Elect were, at least at one time or to a certain extant,

You haven't defined what you mean by "lost", so until you do that, any discussion will be pointless.

Lost
or else you believe they were Saved when they were Elected before the foundation of the World
which is it? at what point was Salvation applied (or whatever)?

I already answered this, so please try to pay attention.
God's people were elected from before the foundation of the world.
They are saved at the point in their lives where God regenerates them and gives them faith.

did Adam live in the Age of Grace? as we are...

Why are you asking me?
Go to Scripture.

do you hold to a concept of distinct Ages like that? (granted, salvation is always by grace)

Why does it matter what I "hold"?

 

[American Gothic]

Why are you asking me? (about Ages)
Go to Scripture.
Why does it matter what I "hold"?

just asking what You believe
maybe you don't "hold" to that concept

I don't view Adam as part of The Church
so for Me no..."only for His Church"
I view Adam as a Believer/Saved person whom Messiah came and died for

 

[Theo1689]

just asking what You believe

Why do you care what I believe?
This forum isn't for calling out individuals and harassing them.
Especially when you refuse to answer questions addressed to you.

maybe you don't "hold" to that concept

I guess you may never know.
How can you survive life, if you don't know what I believe?

I don't view Adam as part of The Church

I don't recall asking your opinion.

so for Me no..."only for His Church"

So now you have your answer.

I view Adam as a Believer/Saved person whom Messiah came and died for

Again, I don't recall asking your opinion.

 

[American Gothic]

Why do you care what I believe?
This forum isn't for calling out individuals and harassing them.
Especially when you refuse to answer questions addressed to you.
I guess you may never know.
How can you survive life, if you don't know what I believe?
I don't recall asking your opinion.
So now you have your answer.
Again, I don't recall asking your opinion.

discussion is not personal harassment
my grumpy 5 point Calvinist fellow Believer in Messiah

happy Hanukkah!
https://dsscalendar.org/DSS-Greg.php?Y=2022

Hanukkah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Thank you. Flaming accusations are a distraction. You may not agree he was Flaming, but a small distraction leads to a major divertment...

If you want your Thread to be all it can be...

Would you consider implying one is a universalist a “ flaming distraction” and a designed distraction ?

 

[Christian]

Would you consider implying one is a universalist a “ flaming distraction” and a designed distraction ?

Yep ??

 

[Christian]

discussion is not personal harassment
my grumpy 5 point Calvinist fellow Believer in Messiah

happy Hanukkah!
https://dsscalendar.org/DSS-Greg.php?Y=2022

Hanukkah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes sir !

 

[Christian]

Would you consider implying one is a universalist a “ flaming distraction” and a designed distraction ?

Have you noticed the scriptures in the OP have been ignored and "doctrinal positions " are being defended rather than addressing the truth from scripture.

 

[Leatherneck0311]

Have you noticed the scriptures in the OP have been ignored.

Yes, I have noticed for rebuttals there are opinions, inferences,and implications about what the OP doesn’t say or imply. I have noticed when Calvinist have no answer to scripture the unrelated questions begin, the well is poisoned by implying the OP is universalism or some other smear or untruth to feel good about the hole they have dug themselves in.

 

[Christian]

Yes, I have noticed for rebuttals there are opinions, inferences,and implications about what the OP doesn’t say or imply. I have noticed when Calvinist have no answer to scripture the unrelated questions begin, the well is poisoned by implying the OP is universalism or some other smear or untruth to feel good about the hole they have dug themselves in.

Agreed its the poisoning of the well fallacy along with the guilt by association fallacy. Its the result when one cannot make an exegetical argument to support their doctrines.

 

[Synergy]

Conclusion

As we have seen reading through these O.T. passages quoted in the N.T., we discover that the N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement. There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins. And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).

In conclusion its faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)

Excellent OP and conclusion!!!

It is very true that "the N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages" as you pointed out. Doing so misses out on many Christological facets of our salvation that are ontological in nature. For example, besides the need to be saved from our sins, there is also that fact that we need to be saved from death and our current nature needs to be transformed. By resurrecting, Christ crushed Hades and de-fanged death. By ascending into Heaven and entering the Holy of Holies, Christ forever transfigured human nature and entered it directly into the abode of our Heavenly Father. This precipitated Pentecost wherein the Holy Spirit now indwells our human nature. Christology is vitally important.

I'd like to mention one other thing. We predominately talk about what we're saved from but rarely do we ask what we are saved for. This is where our Predestination can help. We are predestined to adoption, inheritance, and conformity to the Image of Christ. All three are interesting but I personally find the last one most fascinating. We are images of God Who we worship. By reading His word and emulating Christ we start to reflect His qualities and produce fruits of the Spirit. In the process the Holy Spirit transforms us into a sharper images of God. So it's vital that God's attributes are well understood through His Word so one doesn't end up transforming into an incorrect image. Calvinists, on the other hand, have concocted the Total Depravity theory which is the the dehumanization of man, a smashing of the image of God in man, iconoclasm in other words. I think that Calvinism was heavily influenced by the iconoclastic spirit that reeked from the south, namely Islam. Both Calvinism and Islam drink from the same iconoclastic spirit.

 

[Rockson]

That's what the Bible teaches.



He chose to.

So if God hates the Non-Elect for the reason that they sin and that's the reason... why didn't he hate you before you were saved for the same reason????

Your teaching has it that God doesn't LOVE anyone and there certainly is no unconditional LOVE....for you say God hates all who sins. Remember you were an unborn again sinner too the same as everyone else were you not? To whom therefore does it mean when it says God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but shall have eternal life" ?????

If you're going to say God so loves certain types of people still doesn't help you. Those same people would have been ones that God hated. So how do you turn hate to love and so how can God so love the world apply to ANYONE???

 

[Rockson]

They are saved at the point in their lives where God regenerates them and gives them faith.

Why would God do that if he hated them. You said before God hates sinners. Your teaching really can't answer how God so loved the world applies to anyone.

 

[Rockson]

This forum isn't for calling out individuals and harassing them.

If I were a Calvinist I'd be at least sending you a private message telling you to knock it off.

I'd tell you you're leaving an impression that a Calvinist can't take even the slightest challenge to their beliefs without becoming emotionally distraught. How can you even dream up that someone is harassing you?

How is that even possible when you can put someone on ignore? I think readers and lurkers might genuinely wonder about you that if you can't take the heat what are you doing in the kitchen? Again if I was a Calvinist I'd tell you you're leaving an impression you can't endure anything and it makes it seem none of us can either.

 

[Theo1689]

Why would God do that if he hated them. You said before God hates sinners.

God chooses to love some sinners DESPITE the fact that they are sinners.
It's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Your teaching really can't answer how God so loved the world applies to anyone.

Yes, it can.
I just explained how.

 

[Theo1689]

If I were a Calvinist I'd be at least sending you a private message telling you to knock it off.

I don't care.
If you were to tell me to "knock it off", you would be attacking God.

I'd tell you you're leaving an impression that a Calvinist can't take even the slightest challenge to their beliefs without becoming emotionally distraught.

And you would be wrong.
You have to engage in personal attack, because you can't refute our theology.

How can you even dream up that someone is harassing you?

The proof is in the posts.

How is that even possible when you can put someone on ignore?

Your question is incoherent.

I think readers and lurkers might genuinely wonder about you that if you can't take the heat what are you doing in the kitchen?

You demonstrate your bankruptcy when you make false statements and try to apply them to the "lurkers", presuming to falsely claim what they allegely think.

Again if I was a Calvinist I'd tell you you're leaving an impression you can't endure anything and it makes it seem none of us can either.

I really don't care what you would "tell" me.
Your opinion is WORTHLESS.

 

[Theo1689]

So if God hates the Non-Elect for the reason that they sin and that's the reason... why didn't he hate you before you were saved for the same reason????

Because He chose not to.
Duh.

\Your teaching has it that God doesn't LOVE anyone

Wrong.
My teaching has it that God loves the elect DESPITE their sins.
Which is EXACTLY what the BIBLE teaches.

and there certainly is no unconditional LOVE....

Of course it's unconditional love.

for you say God hates all who sins.

I never claimed that, did I?
That's why you cannot provide a linked quote of me saying any such thing.

Bearing false witness is a SIN.
You need to REPENT.

Remember you were an unborn again sinner too the same as everyone else were you not?

Of course I was.

To whom therefore does it mean when it says God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes on him shall not perish but shall have eternal life" ?????

Did you never read my multi-part exegesis of John 3:16?

If you're going to say God so loves certain types of people still doesn't help you.

I didn't say it.
GOD said it, in SCRIPTURE.
I'm only the messenger.

Those same people would have been ones that God hated.

You don't get to decide who God loves or hates.
GOD does.
And you're not God.
Just so you know...

So how do you turn hate to love

Your question is incoherent.

and so how can God so love the world apply to ANYONE???

Because God CHOOSES to love His people.

 

[Christian]

If I were a Calvinist I'd be at least sending you a private message telling you to knock it off.

I'd tell you you're leaving an impression that a Calvinist can't take even the slightest challenge to their beliefs without becoming emotionally distraught. How can you even dream up that someone is harassing you?

How is that even possible when you can put someone on ignore? I think readers and lurkers might genuinely wonder about you that if you can't take the heat what are you doing in the kitchen? Again if I was a Calvinist I'd tell you you're leaving an impression you can't endure anything and it makes it seem none of us can either.

?

 

[Rockson]

God chooses to love some sinners DESPITE the fact that they are sinners.

Then you've lost all arguments you've ever made. You've said God hates sinners because they sin and that's the reason but you're a sinner just as bad (even Paul referred to himself as the chief of sinners) but well....he just chooses to LOVE you?

Illustration Time: I can't stand water melon. I find it repulsive. Some sinners are repulsive in his sight (he doesn't love them according to you Theo) they're like water melon....but you're of the same kind. So what are you saying? God is going to LOVE this water melon but not the other? Despite the fact that they're water melon I'm going to LOVE them but that piece here or that piece there NOPE!

Now one might ask God, "But aren't they all the same, aren't they are the same?" YES they are. I'm going to LOVE these ones though and not the other!

That my friends would be a God showing partiality and not using a fair and just standard by which grace would be released.

James 2:8-9 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

1 Timothy 5:21 I solemnly command you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus and the highest angels to obey these instructions without taking sides or showing favoritism to anyone.

7. Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, the mighty and awesome God, who shows no partiality and cannot be bribed.

So readers what do we see here? Favoritism IS sin! It makes one a lawbreaker. Is this not what Calvinists are saying God is truly doing? Calvinsits ask yourself the question. Is God a lawbreaker? Why favor to some sinners (remember the water melon) and not the others. The Bible says he shows NO PARTIALITY. None! Folks that's GOT to mean something. It's got to mean what it says! If there is no marked difference between why God would LOVE one and not the other what else can that mean except God is showing partiality. Look again at the last verse quoted above....who shows NO, NO partiality.

That therefore set up the image we should have in our spirits and minds about the character of God. I'd say woe to the man who tampers with that image insinuating his moral character is something else except the above. Some Calvinists would protest citing God's sovereignty and I'd say they would be wise to immediately stop what they're doing. ! You just can't jump out of the perimeters of what God has said about his character! His character is what it is because it is morally the BEST. You try to change that you're making him something he is not and in light of the fact that it cost him dearly to reveal the true character of God by sending Jesus (Jesus said he revealed the Father or what God was like) you're going to tamper with that....all I'd have to say is Oh my, oh my, oh my! That's NOT something you really want to do.