The free gift of God

[Markk]

Folks--this is a false claim--which has been reputed on numerous occasions.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches the free gift is just that--free--and involves absolvent from both physical and spiritual death--and termed The Redemption, IE--the Redemption of all men from the Fall.

Any claim the Resurrection is the only free gift found in the church--is a false claim.

DB...why didn't you paste or opine on the LDS teaching about having to accept the atonement?

Folks, what DB is doing is being very deceptive, if you want to know what Mormonism teaches on this, go to MLDS sources, not a message board. Check out what I said here ad check out the sources and check out what DB is asserting and see if he is telling the who story here.

The church teaches very clearly that the atonement must be accepted, it teaches it can also be rejected. It is muddy and messy, but one can wade through it and understand real quick DB is not being transparent with what the church actually teaches.

 

[Richard7]

DB...why didn't you paste or opine on the LDS teaching about having to accept the atonement?

Folks, what DB is doing is being very deceptive, if you want to know what Mormonism teaches on this, go to MLDS sources, not a message board. Check out what I said here ad check out the sources and check out what DB is asserting and see if he is telling the who story here.

The church teaches very clearly that the atonement must be accepted, it teaches it can also be rejected. It is muddy and messy, but one can wade through it and understand real quick DB is not being transparent with what the church actually teaches.

WE had a veil placed over our minds and memories Markk, we cannot remember the actions which took place before coming here... So the atonement is a gift from God freely without any conditions, do you agree with that? We do know that the gift had to be completed here on earth and only after Christ accomplished his mission were we guaranteed immorality... what if Christ had not completed his atonement? what then? We at one time showed faith that Christ would be the great sacrifice and only then could we enjoy immortality.

 

[Markk]

So the atonement is a gift from God freely without any conditions, do you agree with that?

LOL no, you even agreed you had to be obedient to HF plan...if you didn't you would not be here, you would be with the other 1/3rd.

And you can reject the atonement here, or accept it, sop's reject it. By rejecting Christ, you reject the atonement. Billions have died without accepting the gospel and atonement of Christ not knowing about it...and you do temple work for those folks, so they can what Ralf...accept it later.

You know better, don't jump in the hole that DB is digging.

 

[Markk]

WE had a veil placed over our minds and memories Markk, we cannot remember the actions which took place before coming here... So the atonement is a gift from God freely without any conditions, do you agree with that? We do know that the gift had to be completed here on earth and only after Christ accomplished his mission were we guaranteed immorality... what if Christ had not completed his atonement? what then? We at one time showed faith that Christ would be the great sacrifice and only then could we enjoy immortality.

Ralf you are talking out of both sides of you mouth. You say it is free with no conditions, then you say you showed faith in the atonement by obedience. So focus, that is conditional, not unconditional. Which is not a free gift...you earned the blessing to come here by being obedient eternal laws and truths.

The veil means nothing here, we can read the teachings of the church. I get it is a muddy mess, but it is clear you made a choice, and still need to either accept or reject the atonement.

Do you accept the Atonement? Do some Reject it? It really comes down to this in a LDS construct, what say you?

 

[Magdalena]

Yes, God keeps his promise but I never, just my opinion, expect or feel I earned that blessing.... why, because I'm not able to sacrifice enough to feel in any way I could ever repay Christ for his ultimate and eternal Sacrifice.... I have received every blessing in my life with humanity and acknowledgment He is our and my Lord and Savior, my sins burden me, and I act accordingly in total humility and so much love for God and His only begotten Son in the flesh... so respectfully I don't totally agree with you...
Love you brother...

Humility? That would be a big no.

 

[Richard7]

LOL no, you even agreed you had to be obedient to HF plan...if you didn't you would not be here, you would be with the other 1/3rd.

And you can reject the atonement here, or accept it, sop's reject it. By rejecting Christ, you reject the atonement. Billions have died without accepting the gospel and atonement of Christ not knowing about it...and you do temple work for those folks, so they can what Ralf...accept it later.

You know better, don't jump in the hole that DB is digging.

Were did I use the word obedient Markk, go back and post it for me or say sorry you were wrong again... no problem folks, he won't find it...

 

[brotherofJared]

I can keep up, however you lack some basic understanding evidently.

LOL

 

[brotherofJared]

Sure, no problem. Get a piece of paper and draw a big circle. Call that big circle all men born in Adam physically, who died spiritually in the fall.
Now draw a second circle inside that big circle, maybe 2/3 the size of the first. Write inside the second circle, all who are IN Christ, by being born again, spiritually. all men had a physical birth....not all are born again...CAN YOU SEE IT YET

Two groups all in Adam.....All In Christ

LOL

I have a better idea. Get a piece of paper and don't write anything on it. Then everything on that paper is all. Those are the ones born of Adam and the one who received the free gift. All means all unless a condition is set and the condition set here is all who were effected by the fall of Adam. See it now? Probably not.

 

[brotherofJared]

Read it slowly....two groups of All

No matter how slowly one reads it it still says all men. Your imagination doesn't change it one iota.

 

[brotherofJared]

No one seeks God

LOL. You all certainly don't.

 

[Markk]

Were did I use the word obedient Markk, go back and post it for me or say sorry you were wrong again... no problem folks, he won't find it...

It's all based on choice Markk, no one can make a choice unless the plan is unfolded ant taught to all.... what conditions are you talking about, what a lame claim... yes please spell out the conditions which made us choose. The only thing you got right was we were obedient to the plan. Click Here ralf 12/22/23 8:06 am And you asked me where you said it at 11:07 AM, just two hours later.

Ralf...you said it was the only thing I got right, the "we were obedient." All withing a few hours of our discussion.

What do you believe here, again you seem confused.

 

[Richard7]

It's all based on choice Markk, no one can make a choice unless the plan is unfolded ant taught to all.... what conditions are you talking about, what a lame claim... yes please spell out the conditions which made us choose. The only thing you got right was we were obedient to the plan. Click Here ralf 12/22/23 8:06 am And you asked me where you said it at 11:07 AM, just two hours later.

Ralf...you said it was the only thing I got right, the "we were obedient." All withing a few hours of our discussion.

What do you believe here, again you seem confused.

I was wrong and admit I did not read your comment clearly, my bad but like I have said before.... you can't be obedient to something that is not commended of us... the plan of Salvation was just that, no conditions no commandment, because God could not command us us to choose it...
neither did he command Adam to chose, he was forbidden to take of the tree of good and evil, never the less you can choose freely...
I choose freely to partake in the Plan of Salvation Markk, never forced or commanded.


2 Nephi 2

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the owls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

To choose a plan in the pre-existence we first had to have knowledge, we have to understand purpose and consequences. But Markk, we could not be coerced to choose on over the other...

 

[Iconoclast]

There is no such term as "in Christ" found in Romans5:18.

And, if "all men" includes all men born in Adam's posterity, in the appearance of "all men" in the Fall--then what is your evidence that same application isn't meant to apply to the "all men" in the free gift?

There are two representative men spoken of here...The first Adam, and the last Adam...everyone knows that.

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
That has a contextual setting, IMO. There is nothing there distinguishing one set of applications of "all men"--- from the other application of "all men"--as to the numbers or universal usage.
And certainly not the parameters you apply to it.

If you read the whole chapter, the division has already been made. Those In Christ have peace with God 5:1 They have the Holy Spirit 5:5

Romans5:1-11 shows it plainly. rom5:12-21 is known for hundreds of years to teach Federal Headship/

Federal headship theology is a theological concept that refers to the idea that Adam, the first man, was appointed by God as the representative head of the human race. This means that whatever obedience or disobedience Adam chose would be imputed to his posterity 123. The concept of federal headship is also known as covenantal headship, which refers to a relationship in which an individual represents a larger group and the actions of the representative are imputed onto the larger group 43. The Apostle Paul teaches about federalism in Romans 5:12-21, where he compares Adam and Christ as two representatives appointed by God 1. Adam’s disobedience brought sin and death to all humanity, while Christ’s obedience brought righteousness and life to all who believe in Him 15. Federal headship theology is a complex subject, and there are different interpretations of it. However, it is an important concept in Reformed theology and has significant implications for our understanding of sin, salvation, and the nature of humanity

"

 

[Iconoclast]

LOL

I have a better idea. Get a piece of paper and don't write anything on it. Then everything on that paper is all.

I see your idea, and I will raise you one. Draw a circle on it, then in the middle draw the letter y Then put your name on it. stare at it for awhile, and then you will see it describes you.

 

[Markk]

I was wrong and admit I did not read your comment clearly, my bad but like I have said before.... you can't be obedient to something that is not commended of us... the plan of Salvation was just that, no conditions no commandment, because God could not command us us to choose it...
neither did he command Adam to chose, he was forbidden to take of the tree of good and evil, never the less you can choose freely...
I choose freely to partake in the Plan of Salvation Markk, never forced or commanded.

Well...Harold B. Lee taught otherwise in the 1973 general conference, Click Here ralf

Now then, to make a summary of what I have just read, may I ask each of you again the question, “Who are you?” You are all the sons and daughters of God. Your spirits were created and lived as organized intelligences before the world was. You have been blessed to have a physical body because of your obedience to certain commandments in that premortal state. You are now born into a family to which you have come, into the nations through which you have come, as a reward for the kind of lives you lived before you came here and at a time in the world’s history, as the apostle Paul taught the men of Athens and as the Lord revealed to Moses, determined by the faithfulness of each of those who lived before this world was created.
You are wrong again. Should a investigator, believe you, or President Lee as to what the LDS church teaches?

Also

THE FAMILY​

A PROCLAMATION TO THE WORLD

The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children. ...


... In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. ...

Coming here is conditional according to the church and the plan had to be accepted.

 

[dberrie2020]

There are two representative men spoken of here...The first Adam, and the last Adam...everyone knows that.

Morning, Iconoclast.

I believe it's a widespread Christian belief all men were condemned to physical and spiritual death because of the Fall--which is usually associated with Adam--and it was Jesus Christ which provided the Atonement and Resurrection to all men--both of those two figures were represented here:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one(Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one(Jesus Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Parenthesis added.

If you read the whole chapter, the division has already been made. Those In Christ have peace with God 5:1 They have the Holy Spirit 5:5

Romans5:1-11 shows it plainly. rom5:12-21 is known for hundreds of years to teach Federal Headship/

Federal headship theology is a theological concept that refers to the idea that Adam, the first man, was appointed by God as the representative head of the human race. This means that whatever obedience or disobedience Adam chose would be imputed to his posterity 123.

There is nothing in there which I disagree with.

That's why Jesus Christ made an Atonement for all men, and provided a Resurrection for all men. Jesus Christ Redeemed all men from the condemnation of the Fall.

That's why we now answer for our own choices--and not Adam's:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If all men were still condemned due to the Fall--there wouldn't be any need to judge all according to their works--they would already be condemned, regardless.

Adam’s disobedience brought sin and death to all humanity, while Christ’s obedience brought righteousness and life to all who believe in Him 15.

While I will agree with the point--"Christ’s obedience brought righteousness and life to all who believe in Him"--that is where men are judged according their own choices. And if that is true--then the condemnation brought to all men must have been absolved from all men--as all are judged according to their own choices--and that for "life"--or--"damnation", as John5:28-29 shows. That includes those professing to be Christians:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

IOW--the absolvement of the condemnation of all men due to the Fall --is a free gift to all men--but all men still have to answer for their own personal choices. One is a free, unconditional gift(absolvement from the condemnation of the Fall)--the other(eternal life, as a personal reception)--is conditional.

 

[dberrie2020]

LOL no, you even agreed you had to be obedient to HF plan...if you didn't you would not be here, you would be with the other 1/3rd.

Just a note here--the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as a free gift--went to "all men"--regardless of what obedience you are referring to.

That's because it was free--unconditional--to all men:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Also--obedience to the Plan of Salvation didn't start in the pre-existence, because that plan was not put into motion there, but after--when speaking of obedience to the plan of salvation:

Plan of Salvation---https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng​

"In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father prepared a plan to enable us to become like Him and receive a fulness of joy. The scriptures refer to this plan as “the plan of salvation” (Alma 24:14; Moses 6:62), “the great plan of happiness” (Alma 42:8), “the plan of redemption” (Jacob 6:8; Alma 12:30), and “the plan of mercy” (Alma 42:15).
The plan of salvation is the fulness of the gospel. It includes the Creation, the Fall, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and all the laws, ordinances, and doctrines of the gospel."

 

[Iconoclast]

Morning, Iconoclast.

I believe it's a widespread Christian belief all men were condemned to physical and spiritual death because of the Fall--which is usually associated with Adam--and it was Jesus Christ which provided the Atonement and Resurrection to all men--both of those two figures were represented here:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one(Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one(Jesus Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Parenthesis added.



There is nothing in there which I disagree with.

That's why Jesus Christ made an Atonement for all men, and provided a Resurrection for all men. Jesus Christ Redeemed all men from the condemnation of the Fall.

That's why we now answer for our own choices--and not Adam's:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If all men were still condemned due to the Fall--there wouldn't be any need to judge all according to their works--they would already be condemned, regardless.



While I will agree with the point--"Christ’s obedience brought righteousness and life to all who believe in Him"--that is where men are judged according their own choices. And if that is true--then the condemnation brought to all men must have been absolved from all men--as all are judged according to their own choices--and that for "life"--or--"damnation", as John5:28-29 shows. That includes those professing to be Christians:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

IOW--the absolvement of the condemnation of all men due to the Fall --is a free gift to all men--but all men still have to answer for their own personal choices. One is a free, unconditional gift(absolvement from the condemnation of the Fall)--the other(eternal life, as a personal reception)--is conditional.

I can see what you are thinking and have tried to suggest a solution.
The effects of the fall remain upon as, as Paul teaches in Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This is only remedied for everyone believing IN Christ, by a God given faith.

We are not like a whiteboard that all sin has been erased, and now we are saved or lost on our works. The only saving work is what Jesus did as our law keeper, and substitute.

 

[Markk]

Just a note here--the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, as a free gift--went to "all men"--regardless of what obedience you are referring to.

Not according to LDS theology

Plan of Salvation---https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng​

"In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father prepared a plan to enable us to become like Him and receive a fulness of joy. The scriptures refer to this plan as “the plan of salvation” (Alma 24:14; Moses 6:62), “the great plan of happiness” (Alma 42:8), “the plan of redemption” (Jacob 6:8; Alma 12:30), and “the plan of mercy” (Alma 42:15).
The plan of salvation is the fulness of the gospel. It includes the Creation, the Fall, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and all the laws, ordinances, and doctrines of the gospel."

And, according to LDS theology...

Now then, to make a summary of what I have just read, may I ask each of you again the question, “Who are you?” You are all the sons and daughters of God. Your spirits were created and lived as organized intelligences before the world was. You have been blessed to have a physical body because of your obedience to certain commandments in that premortal state. Harold B. Lee at general conference Click Here

Lee teaches you were "blessed" to have a physical body, because of obedience to certain commandments in the pre-existence. That is not a unconditional free gift, it is a conditional requirement.

The church also teaches in the Gospel Principles Teaching Manuel chapter 12...the atonement must be accepted, which has conditions, including obedience to the laws of the Gospel here in the second estate. Which makes the Atonement Conditional.

The Savior’s Atonement makes it possible for us to overcome spiritual death. Although all people will be resurrected, only those who accept the Atonement will be saved from spiritual death (see Articles of Faith 1:3).

We accept Christ’s Atonement by placing our faith in Him. Through this faith, we repent of our sins, are baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and obey His commandments. We become faithful disciples of Jesus Christ. We are forgiven and cleansed from sin and prepared to return and live forever with our Heavenly Father. Click Here

DB, you are just not on the same page with LDS teachings...

 

[dberrie2020]

Not according to LDS theology

Cite, please. What men are you claiming LDS theology excludes in the free gift to all men?

And, according to LDS theology...
Now then, to make a summary of what I have just read, may I ask each of you again the question, “Who are you?” You are all the sons and daughters of God. Your spirits were created and lived as organized intelligences before the world was. You have been blessed to have a physical body because of your obedience to certain commandments in that premortal state. Harold B. Lee at general conference Click Here

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints testifies the free gift of the Atonement and Resurrection was a free gift to all men--regardless of mankind's obedience --or when.

What is there about the scripture do you disagree with?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Lee teaches you were "blessed" to have a physical body, because of obedience to certain commandments in the pre-existence.

The Atonement and Resurrection was a free gift to all men, as to the Fall--regardless of who was blessed to have a physical body, or any obedience to gain that body.

It went to all men--period. Christ alone. Free, unconditional gift to all men.

Your point is just pertaining to who became men.

That is not a unconditional free gift, it is a conditional requirement.

Again--you are referring to who became men--not the free gift.

What requirement do you feel the scriptures place on the free gift to all men?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The church also teaches in the Gospel Principles Teaching Manuel chapter 12...the atonement must be accepted,

Not for the free gift. For the forgiveness of sins, OK, but that was not the free gift.

Again--what is there about Elder Christofferson's testimony you feel is false? Both the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus Christ is a free, unconditional gift to all men, as to the Redemption from the Fall, IE--absolvement from both spiritual and physical death--as it relates to the Fall.

which has conditions, including obedience to the laws of the Gospel here in the second estate. Which makes the Atonement Conditional.

The Savior’s Atonement makes it possible for us to overcome spiritual death. Although all people will be resurrected, only those who accept the Atonement will be saved from spiritual death (see Articles of Faith 1:3).

We accept Christ’s Atonement by placing our faith in Him. Through this faith, we repent of our sins, are baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and obey His commandments. We become faithful disciples of Jesus Christ. We are forgiven and cleansed from sin and prepared to return and live forever with our Heavenly Father. Click Here

Again--the Atonement is conditional--when it comes to the remission of sins, and inheritance of eternal life--as a personal reception-- but the free gift is unconditional.

The "spiritual death" referred to there is the second death--not the first one, and is conditional:

Revelation 20:13-14---King James Version
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The first spiritual death--all men were absolved of in His Atonement, as a free gift to all men--unconditional.

Markk--you don't understand LDS theology, IMO.