Why I Have Difficulty Loving and Forgiving Enemies

I know what you're thinking here, Tree. You're wanting to claim a rhetorical victory of "You said there's no requirement, but now you're saying repentance is a requirement." The stakes are too high for that kind of superficial victory on your behalf. You're getting so close. Obviously a requirement for you to be FREELY forgiven of your sins is to recognize that they exist. I'll take the loss. You take the victory, not the boring worthless CARM victory over me, but the VICTORY IN JESUS!

God loves you, brother.
If you are being sincere -then I sincerely thank you, stiggy

You'll forgive me, though, for my uncertainty...

You've burned me enough times in the past - spurning my overtures of an online friendship and acting like a jerk just when I've come to believe that you're really a good guy who just happens to hold a diametrically opposed viewpoint - that I find it difficult to trust you now

Correct. I am very impressed by your increasing understanding of your newfound Christianity.
There was never a time, since I first started posting on CARM, that I haven't understood Christianity

Seriously. Now that you understand that you must repent of your sins, your next step is to repent of your sins. Are you ready to do that?
No, I am not

Reason being, I cannot bring myself to repent to one who consciously, purposefully, and needlessly ensured that I am bound, from birth, to do that which requires my repentance
 
If you are being sincere -then I sincerely thank you, stiggy

I am.

You'll forgive me, though, for my uncertainty...

Of course.

You've burned me enough times in the past - spurning my overtures of an online friendship and acting like a jerk

I don't recall your making such overtures, but if indeed I failed to detect such sincerity on your part, I apologize. I can definitely be a jerk.

There was never a time, since I first started posting on CARM, that I haven't understood Christianity

I'm not that interested in your understanding of Christianity. I don't think that's too important. But your gross MISunderstanding of Who Jesus Christ is, is of utmost importance.
 
your gross MISunderstanding of Who Jesus Christ is, is of utmost importance.
Have I misunderstood Jesus?

Jesus is one and the same as YHVH, right?
YHVH, as a response to Adam and Eve's defiance, created the rest of us "apart from Him" and deserving, from birth, of Hell, no?
This is a conscious, purposeful, and needless infliction of harm, isn't it?

It's great, stiggy, that Jesus Christ, like a lifeguard tossing out a buoy, offers salvation

Unlike a lifeguard, though, it is Jesus Christ, Himself, who {IF one and the same as YHVH} consciously, purposefully, and needlessly tossed us into the deep end knowing full well that we cannot swim!

I'm sorry, but I do not and cannot, in this light, see Jesus as good
 
Have I misunderstood Jesus?

Horribly.

Jesus is one and the same as YHVH, right?

Yes.

YHVH, as a response to Adam and Eve's defiance, created the rest of us "apart from Him" and deserving, from birth, of Hell, no?

No. Look, if we are going to converse on stuff like this, you are going to need to begin supplying scripture to back up your theological speculations.

It's great, stiggy, that Jesus Christ, like a lifeguard tossing out a buoy, offers salvation

"Great" is an understatement.

Unlike a lifeguard, though, it is Jesus Christ, Himself, who {IF one and the same as YHVH} consciously, purposefully, and needlessly tossed us into the deep end knowing full well that we cannot swim!

Look, let's have a gentlemen's agreement here. Henceforth, every time I make a theological comment that you dispute, ask me to back it up scripturally and I will provide chapter and verse. Same with you. We'll start now: Please show me where in the Bible it says or even implies what you said about Jesus Christ above.
 
Look, if we are going to converse on stuff like this, you are going to need to begin supplying scripture to back up your theological speculations.
You have to understand, stiggy, that not all Christian doctrine is explicitly described in scripture

Take, for example, the concept of the Holy Trinity

Surely, you're not going to deny that the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being both separate and same is a fundamental aspect of Christian belief and, yet, nowhere in the bible does the term "Holy Trinity" ever appear!

{And, no, I didn't call you Shirley!}



Again, I don't think one need always refer to scripture in order to accurately identify and assess a given precept of Christianity

That said, I can and will provide biblical support for my assertion that Jesus consciously, purposefully, and needlessly 'tossed us into the deep end knowing full well that we cannot swim'

Psalm 51:5
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me"

Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies"

Job 15:14
"What is man, that he can be pure?
Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?"

Each of the above verses make clear that we are born into sin - born with corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin thus warranting our damnation

And it goes without saying that this is by the conscious and purposeful Hand of God



Going back to your lifeguard analogy - it fails because, unlike the lifeguard who did nothing to effect a drowning, it was Jesus, Himself, who created us destined to drown
 
You have to understand, stiggy, that not all Christian doctrine is explicitly described in scripture

No. If it can't be backed up with scripture, I don't accept it as Christian doctrine.

Take, for example, the concept of the Holy Trinity

Surely, you're not going to deny that the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being both separate and same is a fundamental aspect of Christian belief and, yet, nowhere in the bible does the term "Holy Trinity" ever appear!

Correct. That's why even though I believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, I never use the word trinity.

That said, I can and will provide biblical support for my assertion that Jesus consciously, purposefully, and needlessly 'tossed us into the deep end knowing full well that we cannot swim'

Psalm 51:5
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me"

Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies"

Job 15:14
"What is man, that he can be pure?
Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?"

Each of the above verses make clear that we are born into sin - born with corrupt natures that inevitably compel sin thus warranting our damnation

Sorry, pal. That won't cut it. I don't take my Christian doctrine from the plaintive cries of OT figures. It is not a Christian doctrine that one should bash the heads of babies onto the rocks, not that we should sacrifice sheep, nor that all is vanity. Try again.

Going back to your lifeguard analogy - it fails because, unlike the lifeguard who did nothing to effect a drowning, it was Jesus, Himself, who created us destined to drown

SCRIPTURE? Whoops, you forgot already. Show the NT scripture saying you are destined to reject Christ's offer of salvation.
 
SCRIPTURE? Whoops, you forgot already. Show the NT scripture saying you are destined to reject Christ's offer of salvation.
I NEVER said that anyone is destined to reject Christ's offer of salvation!

What I am saying is that Christ/YHVH destines us to be in need of His salvation to begin with


What, exactly, are you disagreeing with?

If Jesus is one in the same as YHVH
{which you have already affirmed}
and YHVH saw to it that we are born in iniquity
{which the OT affirms}
then what's your beef, Clara Peller???
 
I NEVER said that anyone is destined to reject Christ's offer of salvation!

But you did. You said Jesus destines us to drown. Cough up that Bible verse. I can give you many telling us He SAVES us from drowning. How many do you want?

What I am saying is that Christ/YHVH destines us to be in need of His salvation to begin with

Yep. That He does. We are also destined to be in need of our Mother. And .......?

If Jesus is one in the same as YHVH
{which you have already affirmed}
and YHVH saw to it that we are born in iniquity

Yep. So we all need Jesus.

Man, you're getting so close. Take the leap, theist.
 
But you did. You said Jesus destines us to drown.
No, being destined to sin is NOT the same thing as being destined unable to accept an offer to invalidate our sin!

That said, please answer the following:

Would you praise a man for putting out your housefire when it turns out that it is he who consciously and purposefully set your house on fire to begin with?
 
No, being destined to sin is NOT the same thing as being destined unable to accept an offer to invalidate our sin!

Whattaya mean "no?" WE AGREE! To quote Dylan:

Temptation's not an easy thing,
Adam given the devil reign
Because he sinned I got no choice,

It run in my vein.

That said, please answer the following:

Would you praise a man for putting out your housefire when it turns out that it is he who consciously and purposefully set your house on fire to begin with?

No. Why do you ask? Are you ignorantly implying that when we sin, it's because God makes us? Scripture, please. Don't even bother to respond without NT scripture.
 
Do repent of sin = salvation
Don't repent of sin = no salvation

Do trust in Jesus = salvation
Don't trust in Jesus = no salvation

Clearly, there ARE requirements to salvation!
I've heard an idiotic analogy that it's as though Jesus is offering to pay your speeding fine, and all you have to do is "accept".

"Have to"? Why? Jesus can pay my speeding fine whether or not I "accept" it, can't he?
 
What I am saying is that Christ/YHVH destines us to be in need of His salvation to begin with

Imagine if you will that you design a glove that fits on your own hand.

God is the designer, you are the glove.

Once you realize you sit there operating against the design maybe an engineering spark will illuminate the issue.

Now, you can reject that you were designed to sup with God, else you'll spin into debauchery and self reliance. You can say you don't like it, spit fire and accuse others of hypocrisy, it won't matter. It's between you and your Maker.

But understanding is the name of the game here. It leaves no room for denial.

So you understand why the broken fellowship Adam and Eve experienced is critical to the design, and that God offers a patch to complete the design yet again, Jesus Christ.

To sup with God is to be a completed human, in commune with God, like we were designed to be.

Despite all the bitter words, mockery, anger, laughter and sarcasm that takes place here, nothing changes the fact we are all human, equal in God's eyes, specifically unique for His good pleasure.

To throw that away would be a travesty for any man, your own unique relationship with God.

"I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it"
 
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Hey, everyone. I come to you fresh off a four or five day much deserved (probably) suspension. I have no way of knowing the specific cause, but it’s most likely due to some rudeness on my part. I may have the record for the most suspensions, and I’m far from being proud of that, but I thought I’d make a post about the impact of my Christiian beliefs upon the nature of my polemical posts, as well as the reverse.

I am well aware that I am strongly encouraged to love my enemies. Now in my past BC days I have known several people whom I would consider my enemy, but it’s been years since that has been the case. Of the many people I now know (in the “real world'') and with whom I come in constant contact, I can truly think of no one whom I need to forgive.The closest I come to thinking of a possible enemy would be my polemical sparring partners here at CARM. So I have to ask myself: IF I stretch the definition of “enemy” and IF Treeplanter, Pixie, 5wize, et al are my enemies, do I hate them? Now it seems to me that true hate would manifest itself in a desire for vengeance, or at least a desire for something detrimental to occur upon these alleged enemies. But I can swear to y’all that that is not the case. Nothing would delight me more than to hear about the spiritual conversion of one of these guys.

So how do my rude barbs toward these wise guys who blast and sometimes even blaspheme my Lord facilitate a conversion? They don’t. But do they impede conversions? If for example Treeplanter pulls one of his patented and tiresome comments out of his very limited rhetorical quiver accusing my beloved Lord and Savior of being an “immoral thug,” and I respond by calling him a shallow and petulant jerk, is that an expression of hate on my part? Before responding, should I think to myself, “Maybe if I call him a jerk, it will further harden his heart, so let me be nice to him. Let him see me rolling over.” To think he could be so easily swayed about something of such existential importance would manifest an even lower opinion of him than I currently have.

When Jesus called the Pharisees a “brood of vipers” and when He overturned the moneychanger’s tables was He being unchristian?

Besides the facial ones, do there also exist two rhetorical cheeks, one of which should be turned if the other is attacked? “Oh, so you just called me a gullible fool? Don’t forget, I’m also a shallow idiot.”

Obviously I cannot myself be so pharisaical as to claim that I LOVE Treeplanter, but I do pray for him daily, so I can’t think of myself as hating him, can I? My prayers FEEL sincere at least. I think I love him, albeit ever so minimally.

It’s weird, but when my thoughts have gone misleading, I sometimes wish that just like in my younger days (BC), someone would do me wrong, so that I could at least test myself to determine if I have it in me to forgive. But dang it, I just don’t HAVE any enemies.

Telling someone the truth is loving them, even if they don't want to hear it.
 
So you understand why the broken fellowship Adam and Eve experienced is critical to the design, and that God offers a patch to complete the design yet again, Jesus Christ.
What are you saying?

God consciously and purposefully screwed us over so that He can then save us?

Please explain to me how this is righteous and just?
Would you ever inflict harm upon your own children so that you could then swoop down and save them from this harm?
 
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