1Thess521
Well-known member
“Teach us to pray”
“pray like this”
“pray without ceasing”
“we constantly pray for you”
Does the meaning of the word “pray” matter?
Can You Pray to Whoever You Want to?
- Thread starter Tertiumquid
- Start date
“pray like this”
“pray without ceasing”
“we constantly pray for you”
Does the meaning of the word “pray” matter?
Atemi
Well-known member
Atemi
Well-known member
If only you obeyed!
I already proved otherwise.
No. I copy and pasted the meaning of the word right from the lexicon written by scholars who know the language.
LOL.
That is what the word means and what it always meant.
I posted that too!
LOL.
Seeking the dead to do any favors for you is prohibited.
"Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?"
Don't forget asking them to find your car keys, or get that house sold, or get that job you wanted, or...
LifeIn
Well-known member
I thought we were not supposed to put our trust in mere humans, and here you are putting your trust in mere human lexicon scholars for interpretation of scripture. If it is a matter of scripture scholars, I'll put mine up against yours any time, for mine have been at it for 2000 years and have the Holy Spirit to guide them. Can your lexicon scholars say the same?
Read that sentence in light of ALL of Isaiah 8:19 instead of here out of context.
Atemi
Well-known member
Hahahahahaha.
And you take that to mean that scholars cannot be cited?
Not even Catholics believe that, so why you are posting something you do not believe is problematic for you.
LOL.
Hebrew words do not change meanings depending on who is looking at the word.....though Catholics are known for making up word meanings to avoid uncomfortable realities.
The question is rhetorical in case you are confused. The answer is that no one should be seeking the aid of the dead on behalf of the living.
What the text is not saying is that it is OK to seek the aid of the dead on behalf of the living, just as long as you only use certain methods to do so.
LOL!
A new day
Super Member
Here is the entire chapter 5 of the book of Revelation. Jesus is worshipped, NOT prayed to. No where in the entire chapter is anyone in heaven imploring anything on believers behalfs. Every being in heaven is worshipping Jesus.
Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
RayneBeau
Well-known member
You disagree with Nondenom, but let me ask you this: Are you a changed man, or a changed woman? Have you received a new heart? Has your life been sanctified to God so that you live for Him alone? Or do you live for yourself?
Stella1000
Well-known member
Hebrews 12 is the blueprint to being a follower of Christ that becomes our focus.
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 12 - New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
The Example of Jesus - Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith, who for the...
Nothing in Hebrews 12 which you claim is the blue print about praying to the dead or bowing before Marian statues.Hebrews 12 is the blueprint to being a follower of Christ that becomes our focus.
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 12 - New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
The Example of Jesus - Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith, who for the...www.biblegateway.com
RCs seem to ignore the last paragraph.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”
Bonnie
Super Member
If following Christ is the RCC focus, then why all the focus on Mary? Why all the prayers to Mary for protection, for comfort, and even for salvation? Why the prayers to her to save them even from their Savior's wrath?Hebrews 12 is the blueprint to being a follower of Christ that becomes our focus.
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 12 - New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition
The Example of Jesus - Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith, who for the...
On our last cruise, we went to several cities in Mexico, Costa Rica, plus Cartegena in Columbia. In one of these towns, we saw a cathedral in which Mary is the centerpiece of the church. A large picture of her is over the main altar in the center of the church. An angel on either side points to her picture. Joseph is off to one side, to the right of the one angel, and a statue of Jesus, pointing to his heart, is to the left of the other angel.
Mary, not Jesus, is the centerpiece of this church...
So much for your church's focus being on Jesus.
Last edited:
Excellent questions.
Bonnie
Super Member
My husband found out for me that this church is the Our Lady of Guadalupe Church in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. Instead of a statue of Mary over the altar, it is a large picture of her. I corrected the post above to reflect that. I did find pictures of the altar online, but the picture isn't very good. Unless one can find a better picture of it.
Mexico has an Our Lady of Guadalupe celebration every year.
From NationalShrine-dot-org:
On December 9, 1531, Mary appeared to Juan Diego on Tepeyac Hill [now in a suburb of Mexico City] while he was on his way to Mass. She asked him to approach the bishop and request that a shrine be built to her there, where she would bless those who called upon her.
The bishop, rather than turning to God's Word, asked for a miraculous sign. So the shrine – to "Mary", not Jesus – was built.
"they will produce great signs and wonders to deceive"
? ?
Bonnie
Super Member
Thanks for the explanation. This alone proves the apparition was demonic, since it says a shrine should be built to her, and those who call upon her would be blessed.
The real Mary would have told the man to call upon her Divine Son to be saved, and trust in Him only for salvation, great and free.
The real Mary would not want the attention placed on her but would want it all focused on her Son.
Bonnie
Super Member
I agree. She cannot save anyone's soul--only Jesus can do that.
RayneBeau
Well-known member
But, but, but wait! Do what you want, but the RCC has a much better way! Many people, probably the majority in most RC countries, have been taught that after a death in the family, they must give more or less unending offerings to the RCC priests for masses to shorten their loved one's time in purgatory. This is particularly tragic for the widows in many of those countries who are often poor and very religious. While a few priests are not in agreement with this doctrine, and do not even accept offerings for the mass in these conditions, others bring to one's mind the admonition of Christ in the Scriptures, "Be on guard against the scribes, who like to parade around in their robes and accept marks of respect in public, front seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets. These men devour the savings of widows and recite long prayers for appearance' sake; it is they who will receive the severest sentence (Mark 12: 38-40). In Italy, the very heart of Roman Catholicism there is a saying which is often used when someone wants to say "you only get what you pay for." Translated word for word it is, "Without money, they don't sing the mass."
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
They must give something? No. They may, if they so choose have a Mass offered for their loved one for a $10 donation. I fail to see what is wrong with this. Protestant churches--you can give flowers in memory of a loved one, or different things like that. Offering 10 dollars--no one is going bankrupt, and no one is getting rich. Priests do receive the $10 donation--but they may only receive one a day--meaning that if they have other Masses, those offerings go to some charity that the bishop directs or to the parish, or to priest education, etc. Every diocese is different but the most a priest will get would be $300 a month if he offers Mass every day and there is a stipend for the Mass he offers.
Now this is an older way that priests were paid. Some dioceses revised this system and have done away with this form of salary altogether. The stipends just go to the parish. I also need to note that no one is mandated to do this--and in cases where a person could not afford the $10---they can still have a Mass offered. Though again, few people, even those on fixed incomes in modern times would not be able to afford $10. $10 is really nominal these days.
But the Church DOES teach that prayer for the dead--is a spiritual work of mercy. Thus, while no one is mandated to have Mass offered in memory of their loved ones---all Catholics are taught that prayer for the dead is a spiritual work of mercy, We remember our dead. We keep their memories alive in our prayers.
Now I get that you people don't like that--but---that isn't our problem. That is your problem.
This is applesauce, pure and simple.
In your sect--does Trustee Joe or Elder Jane refuse to do a flower memory for the poor who cannot afford the offering?
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
And Catholics agree with that too. Only Jesus can save anyone's soul. No Catholic believes Mary can save.
"But, but, but, wait!" you bleat at me....."Catholics say Mary is co-redemptrix!"
1) That doctrine at this time is neither condemned, nor officially taught. It is considered heterodox. What this means is that Catholics are free to disbelieve it or defend and believe it as their conscience directs. Both Pope Benedict and Pope Francis have distanced themselves from this doctrine. They are not comfortable with it. Though in my opinion they are condemning misunderstandings of the doctrine--misunderstandings--very similar to what YOU and your buddies here think the doctrine is.
2) For those (such as me) who defend the doctrine, the doctrine does NOT assert that Mary can save. Mary is co-redemptrix only in a secondary sense. Her mediation depends entirely on Christ. Any role she plays as "coredemptrix" depends entirely on Christ.
Now--of course--you still do not like that--and fine. Whatever. My point is that whether you like the doctrine or not---the doctrine does not assert that Mary has any power of redemption in and of herself. Everything Mary is depends on Christ. Without Christ, Mary is nothing.
Bonnie
Super Member
Here is one prayer that actually pleads for deliverance:
(from a Catholic website I cannot link to, ucatholic.com)
"Deliver us from all dangers." Nothing intercessory here, but the pray-er expects Mary to hear him/her and actually SAVE the person from all dangers--something ONLY God can do!
deLiguori, in one of his execrable prayers to Mary in his book, THE GLORIES OF MARY, calls her the "ONLY hope for sinners." What is Jesus? So much chopped liver?
How about this beaut:
(from vatican.va)
Mary is the source of true love? How utterly absurd! Mary protects and saves us? Ridiculous! Mary is our ONLY refuge, our hope, our salvation"??? Blasphemy! GOD is "our refuge and our strength" and "a very present help in trouble." Mary is all of these things? So, did God lie in these quotes from the OT?
So, please do not try to tell me that Catholics don't pray to Mary for salvation! After all, your own CCC calls her the "cause of our salvation" does it not?
AND co-mediatrix. I wasn't thinking of that but since you brought it up...this is not yet dogma in your church, but is still taught by some of your church's theologians, much to their shame!
But we need no co-anything or co-anyone to dave us, for we have the one perfect intercessor and Savior for us with the Father--Christ Jesus our Lord! And it is the HS Who helps us when we do not know how to pray as we ought to.
Why isn't God good enough for Catholics?
See above. It should be condemned and NEVER officially taught as dogma!
That isn't really what "heterodox" means, but again, I wasn't going to bring it up. I wasn't even thinking about it. Perhaps you mean it is considered "pious opinion."
I wasn't even thinking about it.
She is not co-anything in ANY sense! That idea is blasphemy. Christ doesn't need anyone's help to save us. You can try rationalizing it all you want, but that idea is of the devil!
Why isn't what Jesus did for us on the cross and did perfectly and completely ever good enough for Catholics? Why do they feel the need to drag in Jesus' mother into everything where she does NOT belong?
What does "co-redemptrix" actually mean, romish? "Co" means "with" and "-trix" is a feminine ending. Thus, the word means "female redeemer with the Redeemer." It is blasphemy, romish! Jesus doesn't need "co" anything or anyone to help Him redeem the world--He did it all by Himself. Dragging Mary into the mix just causes confusion and can lead to people putting more trust in Mary to save them--hence those prayers I quoted to Mary--than in Jesus. It can lead people to take their eyes off Jesus and fasten them on a mere creature to help and save them--something the devil would be utterly delighted with! Just because Mary is involved makes it no less dangerous--in fact, more so, since Catholics have been indoctrinated for hundreds of years to turn to Mary for help, comfort, and even salvation.
It is utterly dangerous in the extreme to take our eyes off Jesus, the author AND perfecter of our faith--and put them on a mere human being, like Mary, or Peter or anyone else. When we do so, then we will sink into a spiritual abyss.
Which means we do NOT NEED MARY for anything--not intercession, not help, not comfort, and certainly NOT salvation--when we have JESUS CHRIST FOR ALL OF THAT! And we are guaranteed that HE hears and answers prayers!
Last edited: