Roman Catholic Thoughts On Spiritual Delusion . . . .

[1Thess521]

Someone just posted this General Audience by Pope Benedict from 2008 that explains it in contrast the deformed interpretations of "faith alone"

Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith | BENEDICT XVI

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith

www.vatican.va

There nothing before or after the gift of faith that merits justification

from -The Vatican
"But whatever in the justified
precedes or follows the free gift of faith
is neither the basis of justification nor merits it."

 

[1Thess521]

Didn't you say we are to listen to what God says and not what man says? So let's listen to what God says. God doesn't say that a person is saved by faith alone and not by works, man says that.

So why are you listening to what man says and not what God says?

God does say
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

it cannot be a work of the Law : it can not be works done in righteousness,
What other works are there?

Today, right now: are you justified (declared righteous ) by God?

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

There is a difference between faith and faith alone. Scripture clearly teaches that faith without works is dead.
James 2:22, "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works."

One cannot see faith but works can and prove faith. We are called to Love God and love others and these works, if you will, prove our faith but these works do not save us. Just as the works produced because of our faith doesn't save us.

It's the same as 1 Corinthians 13: 1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Equally, if we say we have faith but no works to support that claim, as James states, then we have a dead faith. So, it's not that works with faith saves us but works prove our faith. That AND

Ephesians 2: 8-9 make it abudantly clear we can do nothing to add to our salvation.

Ephesians 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Stella1000]

There nothing before or after the gift of faith that merits justification

from -The Vatican
"But whatever in the justified
precedes or follows the free gift of faith
is neither the basis of justification nor merits it."

We know that. Here are the relevant canons from Trent.

Canon 1. If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

 

[leonard03782]

What is there to interpret in Luke 7:50? A child could tell what Jesus meant! It's not written in Swahili, nor do we need some secret decoder ring to understand the very simple phrase, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace"!

Are you sure that it is not written in Swahili? There are people translating GOD's word into every single language these days. No matter what language the Scriptures are translated to, they still mean the same thing.

 

[leonard03782]

We know that. Here are the relevant canons from Trent.

Canon 1. If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

IOW, Trent made the Gospel of Jesus Christ an anathema.

 

[Stella1000]

IOW, Trent made the Gospel of Jesus Christ an anathema.

No it made the sin of presumption anathema.

 

[mica]

We know that. Here are the relevant canons from Trent.

Canon 1. If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

and? because catholics wrote that up people are supposed to believe it?

 

[leonard03782]

What in the Rcc is infallible? For born-again Christians the only current expression of God's infallibility is His written Word. You know, the Bible. That compilation of God-breathed Scripture.

In reality, the "traditions" of the rcc will always be more important to and carry far more weight than the Scriptures to rc's.

 

[leonard03782]

No it made the sin of presumption anathema.

and where, pray tell, does canon 9 say anything about a sin of "presumption"?

 

[Stella1000]

and where, pray tell, does canon 9 say anything about a sin of "presumption"?

From the Baltimore Catechism - "Presumption is a rash expectation of salvation without making proper use of the necessary means to obtain it." It points out our necessary part that we be prepared and disposed by the action of our own will.

 

[mica]

From the Baltimore Catechism - "Presumption is a rash expectation of salvation without making proper use of the necessary means to obtain it." It points out our necessary part that we be prepared and disposed by the action of our own will.

can you give an example of what that would be?

 

[balshan]

No it made the sin of presumption anathema.

Where is that sin in scripture and it would appear some RCs on these threads are suffering from sin of presumption?

 

[Bonnie]

Without "her loving acts towards Jesus" her faith would have been dead and would not have saved her.

But Jesus didn't say those loving acts saved her--did He? He simply said "Your FAITH has saved you."

In Luke 19 there is no mention of faith at all in this passage but Jesus said that salvation has come to this house".

And how did salvation come?

So what brought salvation to Zacchaeus's house?

His faith in Jesus Christ, which led to his renouncing his sinful ways.

But the fact remains, in Luke 7:50, Jesus told the woman that her "FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace." He did NOT say "your faith and your loving works towards me saved you." Did He?

No, His simply and only said FAITH.

 

[Bonnie]

If

The nCCs are the ones trying to tell us that we are saved by faith alone. There is no text in scripture, anywhere, that says we are saved by faith alone. So the nCCs are the ones adding to scripture what isn't there.

IF we are saved by grace through faith and not by works....what is there left to be saved by? If we are saved NOT by works done in righteousness, but by God's mercy--what is there left to be saved by? How did God show us that mercy? Care to tell us?

 

[Bonnie]

Divisions over doctrinal issues exists between Christians - that is an issue.

That is the issue I am addressing. How do we know whose doctrines are correct?

Why are you attempting a diversionary tactic? To get out of giving a simple answer to my simple question? But your question here would probably be off topic for this board, but not for the Doctrinal Questions board, or Apologetics board, it seems to me.

 

[balshan]

But Jesus didn't say those loving acts saved her--did He? He simply said "Your FAITH has saved you."


And how did salvation come?

His faith in Jesus Christ, which led to his renouncing his sinful ways.

But the fact remains, in Luke 7:50, Jesus told the woman that her "FAITH HAS SAVED YOU; go in peace." He did NOT say "your faith and your loving works towards me saved you." Did He?

No, His simply and only said FAITH.

You know the way RCs twist these verses and focus on the works they see as being done, shows they miss the whole point of those verses about being saved. Their focus is not Jesus and the person.

 

[mica]

dingoling. said:
Divisions over doctrinal issues exists between Christians - that is an issue.

That is the issue I am addressing. How do we know whose doctrines are correct?

there are no doctrinal issues between Christians, but there are between Christians and nonChristians.

 

[mica]

Scripture alone doesn't say we are saved by faith alone.

What does Vatican II have to say about being justified/saved by faith alone.?

What does the CCC say about it?

neither of those are of God, so they aren't His truth.

 

[mica]

There is a difference between faith and faith alone. Scripture clearly teaches that faith without works is dead.

James 2:22, "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works."

So why do the nCCs keep insisting that we are justified by faith alone and not by works when scripture clearly indicates otherwise?

oh, probably because they understand what it actually says and means.