Think about what?
The comment that you gave a WOW to. Perhaps I misunderstood. Was that a wow of incredulity or magnificence?Think about what?
Doesnt that make the fall a happenstance event? It just happened to trun out that way.Anyway, just a couple of thoughts that may be a different way of looking at what is referred to as 'strict determinism'--which is said by some that champion 'free will' as an agent of man for a cause of salvation, to be doctrinal error. In other words, that God does not strictly determine an individual's salvation--via 'election'--that salvation is determined by the choice and will of an individual.
I want to go back to a beginning and look at this.
In order for this to work, a starting condition must have existed and that is that Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall did indeed have a free will. A will free Godward and not bound or encumbered by 'sin'. Adam was not made 'corrupt', but he was made 'corruptible'. I have said a bunch there in order to make two simple points.
1. What 'determined' Adam's future was his choice to break God's commandment to refrain from eating of that tree. The bad one. Secondarily to that choice that 'determined strictly' his future is that that future included 'death' rather than 'eternal Life' represented by the other tree, which is Christ.
2. God 'determined' to 'SAVE' a portion of Adam's fallen race for Himself through the Slain Lamb before any of this started.
In this scenario, we have two instances of a 'strict determinism'.
God did not strictly determine that Adam would choose as he did--Adam's choice did that. Adam lost that 'free will' which had become fully sinful--dead in sin. Dead Godward. A thing that is dead cannot be partially dead and partially alive. This is where we need God's help to understand just how sinful sin is. How utterly dark sin is and cannot mix with the Light--with God.
Knowing this, we can look at how it was necessary that God, now--had to 'strictly determine' by His will to rescue some from that awful state--by the Redeeming work of Jesus Christ--who paid in full the wages of that sin--so that its result which is death does no longer determine fate. Rather Christ's Righteousness and Life is, by God's determination, imputed to His elect.
There is a whole lot in between the lines of the above related to the OP, but I thought it might be helpful to actually think about 'determination' and how it must relate in some form to the doctrinal positions we hold.
Whether as a noun or verb type.
That is not my view. Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.Doesnt that make the fall a happenstance event? It just happened to trun out that way.
It was only different in the kinds of choices he could make, both good and bad. It was not any more free from God than after the fall.That is an interesting contribution and worth thinking about.
It seems you are circling back to a 'strict determinism', which I have no problem with.
Do you think Adam's free will was different before the fall?
Good. So Adam was no more free from God's determination than anyone.That is not my view. Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
That is not my view. Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
An interesting point. I would point to Peter....Just so you know, you can only get that understanding from one verse of the Bible (Rev. 13:8), and only from specific translations (KJV, NKJV, NIV) but not others (ESV, NASB, NET, etc.)
Rev. 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. (ESV)
The Greek is ambiguous as to whether "before the foundation of the world" modifies "written in the book of life", or "the Lamb who was slain".
Other Scripture informs our decision:
Rev. 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. (ESV)
IMO, it's unwise to be dogmatic about a view based only on a single verse that is ambiguous in meaning.
An interesting point. I would point to Peter....
1Pet. 1:20 (ESVS) He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
OK--I see the distinction you are making and of course I agree. I have never thought that He was literally slain before His incarnation, only that it was pre-determined for God's purpose.I agree He was foreknown before the foundation of the world.
But He was slain 2000 years ago.
Nobody cares.
You offer ZERO Scripture that determinism is false.
You offer ZERO Scripture that your beliefs are true.
You simply offer repetitive worthless rhetoric against Calvinism to try to brainwash people against it.
Yes, it helps because your correct. ?"Hope this helps !!!"
Woah! Assumption alert!Because God after finishing His Creation, including Adam; declared it all to be good and that must include the reality that Adam was made in such a way to 'choose'. That ability to make that bad choice, was also 'good'.
An interesting point. I would point to Peter....
1Pet. 1:20 (ESVS) He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
Indulging in cancel cultureSince they are incapable of winning and argument and defending their beliefs it’s all the can do is claim victory at the vacation game .
Nope. You are saying all of that. I was simply pointing out something God said. The kicker is what we do with it.Woah! Assumption alert!
From where do you get that uncorrupted Adam (without sin and, therefore, without sinful desires) was able to choose evil, without corrupting himself by desiring it first?
And the second assumption is based on the first - that the supposed ability to rebel against God, from an uncorrupt nature that had no sin, was very good.
Which comes first: desire or action?
You cancel yourself. You cannot behave.Indulging in cancel culture
This is all fine; but it's a cut down version of what you've been posting, minus the controversial parts; however, for the purpose of our discussion, the controversial parts are the ones that matter.Nope. You are saying all of that. I was simply pointing out something God said. The kicker is what we do with it.
1. Adam was made curruptible but not corrupt
2. God said it was all good
3. Adam sinned
4. Adam died
This is how I started this OP to point out a few things interesting to me to think about and discuss.In order for this to work, a starting condition must have existed and that is that Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall did indeed have a free will. A will free Godward and not bound or encumbered by 'sin'. Adam was not made 'corrupt', but he was made 'corruptible'. I have said a bunch there in order to make two simple points.
1. What 'determined' Adam's future was his choice to break God's commandment to refrain from eating of that tree. The bad one. Secondarily to that choice that 'determined strictly' his future is that that future included 'death' rather than 'eternal Life' represented by the other tree, which is Christ.
2. God 'determined' to 'SAVE' a portion of Adam's fallen race for Himself through the Slain Lamb before any of this started.
In this scenario, we have two instances of a 'strict determinism'.
God did not strictly determine that Adam would choose as he did--Adam's choice did that. Adam lost that 'free will' which had become fully sinful--dead in sin. Dead Godward. A thing that is dead cannot be partially dead and partially alive. This is where we need God's help to understand just how sinful sin is. How utterly dark sin is and cannot mix with the Light--with God.
Knowing this, we can look at how it was necessary that God, now--had to 'strictly determine' by His will to rescue some from that awful state--by the Redeeming work of Jesus Christ--who paid in full the wages of that sin--so that its result which is death does no longer determine fate. Rather Christ's Righteousness and Life is, by God's determination, imputed to His elect.
Rather its a game hereYou cancel yourself. You cannot behave.